Author Topic: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)  (Read 9963 times)

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #285 on: July 30, 2008, 09:25:54 PM »
Crockett, why do you care if someone gets score or not?

In short, I don't care if people get score or not however you are missing the point and thinking too much about the "score" it's self. Regardless of the topic title and the idea, you need to see past that and understand the goal in the end. This idea isn't so much about the score system but making the game better and producing better sticks in the long run. This game is based off a score reward system, you get points or score for doing various things and that is the only reason score is even involved because that's the only tool the game has to reward players with.

Now for the long part...

Game play IMO has gone down hill and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this, regardless of what your opinion is on it. I think score is a big reason for this, because it's obvious how people go out of their way to pad their stats in one way or another. Others may not pad their stats but instead they are scared to get into any engagements where they don't have an advantage, so they run away from the fight. Others may fly in the safety of their hoard to gang bang some lone con and have little risk of dying.

In short this game is going further and further away from learning real ACM and actually fighting, to nothing but hoards running from one gangbang to the next while doing suicide ack runs just to get a vulch on. It's almost always 70% to 80% of country A beating up on country B then B doing it to C and C doing it to A. Then we have probably 80% of the bases captured that are taken by NOE raids or some lone guy in a flack trying to sneak a base while no one is looking.

In other words this game and the current system is encouraging people not to fight. Vulching is just another thing that stops a fight because 9 times out of 10 a vulched field was vulched just for the easy kills and almost never ends with a base capture. So in other words it's just lazy tards that likely can't kill 4 to 5 guys in a single sortie air to air, but they want to reap easy kills on a runway, to get their name in lights.

You can read right here that saantana openly admits he vulches for score. Rather than learn and get better it's easier to just go milk hoard and be a vulch and gang tard. There are countless people just like him in the MA's and they have been steadily turning the MA into a skill-less hoard that couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack with a butcher knife unless they have 5 gangbang buddies flying Niki's with them. (not to pick on saantana but he's the one in here admitting to it, so he gets used as the example)

Granted this game has a high learning cure and it takes time to get good, but isn't that the point? I mean this game isn't Air Quake after all is it? The problem is the game keeps degrading into the hoard mentality, new players see other guys vulching, HOing and generally being a tard so they end up falling into that trap bringing the community one step further down the ladder. Rather than developing their skills because they get beat by the really good sticks and want to get better, it's easier to just go vulch or be a hoard monkey. I mean hell they end up with the same WTG's on 200 and a nice score so where is the incentive to actual learn ACM and fight for the kills?

I'll give you an example.. There was some new guy that posted on the forum a week or so ago all happy about wanting to be a p51 stick and learning ACM and the whole nine yards. A lot of us gave him suggestions and a pat on the back and sent him on his way to becoming the next AH ace of aces. Meanwhile a week or so later I see him in the MA diving in from 10k trying to vulch guys on the runway, I was co alt and ended up running him down and killing him. Now he could have tried to fight me in a 1 on 1. I'm sure he would have died lol, but hell I think he might have learned something. However instead he took the easy "try" to vulch and still died learning nothing in the process other than he probably needs to run faster.

Vulching and hoarding with 10 guys chasing one lone con breed this kind of skill less flying in the MA's. The new guys come in see the other guys doing it and think that's what this game is all about. Maybe just maybe if a noob sticks around a year or so he might eventually realize that there is much more to ACM than HOing and vulching. Then just maybe if we are lucky he might become someone who adds to the community rather than just be part of the problem he is replicating.

That is what this 30 seconds idea is about. It's not really about score that's just the tool, it's about trying to help make this game better and build a community that focuses on actually fighting and developing their ACM skills vs just being a bunch Ho & vulch dweebs stealing bases in the middle of the night for the 20 perk reset. In short the community is only as good as it's members and It's my opinion this community needs to start striving to be better sticks rather than striving for the easiest way to score points.

Granted this 30 seconds idea wouldn't do all that but at least maybe it could be a step n the right direction by not rewarding people for doing one of the dweebist things in the game.
"strafing"

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #286 on: July 30, 2008, 09:28:07 PM »

This is starting to remind me of asking your kid to clean his room, "Billy, clean your room please".
"No!",
"Billy clean your room now!"
"No!"
"Billy I'm not going to tell you again, clean your room!"
"No, I don't want to!"
<Takes belt off, Billy runs to his room>


I just hope you don't take your belt off... don't wanna see your trousers slipping down  :uhoh
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #287 on: July 30, 2008, 09:29:47 PM »
It's a completely valid answer. You just don't like it.

Stupidity should bear a penalty. Laziness should not be encouraged. Under your scheme, both the shooter and victim see no change to their score. If there is no penalty for being dumb or lazy where there was one before, then it's really a net gain over what would previously happen and tantamount to a reward. Are you following this?

The entire argument is silly. Want to limit vulching? One less mouse click does it every time. Amazing, isn't it? Problem solved. Wanna break a cap? Grab a Tiffie or Dora from the nearest base, invest 5 minutes and have a field day killing the low flying horde. Another problem solved.

I think it's the instant gratification culture at work here. No one wants to take 5 minutes to really have a chance to break a cap. "I want it now!"

You want it more difficult to get a vulch started and make hording more costly? Harden the field ack. Add some manned 88mm guns. Harden the ordnance bunkers. Add a second VH. There's lots of ways to temper the hordes and vulch-fests without dicking around with scores and adding massive complexity to the game code. Hardening the ack (including manned) requires just a few mouse clicks in the arena setup screen, less than a minute. Increasing lethality can be done at the same time. These things will make a difference and without the slightest expenditure of time and trouble. However, your cure is no better than the disease IMHO.


My regards,

Widewing

I dis agree with that.. It's a very fine line of ack that can momentarily stop vulches vs having ack so strong the uppers just hide in it. Look at CV's for a perfect example of that, how many times do CV battles end up with the attackers hiding in their ack waiting for their 5 inch buddies to kill you off.

The fastest way to kill a furball is to bring a CV right on top of the base it's trying to attack.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:33:06 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #288 on: July 30, 2008, 09:34:15 PM »
This is starting to remind me of asking your kid to clean his room, "Billy, clean your room please".

Well there's a way to win people over to your point of view.  Put them in the inexperienced child role, and you play the benevolent parent  :rolleyes:

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #289 on: July 30, 2008, 09:34:53 PM »
Quote
In short, I don't care if people get score or not however you are missing the point and thinking too much about the "score" it's self

In your very first post, at the top of the thread you said this:
Quote
The only way IMO to get a better idea by score of who the best pilots or GVer's are, is if vulch tards and spawn campers were taken out of the equation.

This has nothing to do with game play, this is about score, period.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #290 on: July 30, 2008, 09:35:40 PM »
Exactly, I've explained the logic of this from every possible angle I can think of. If the few vocal nay sayers are so obstinate in their position that they can find nothing in the previous 18 pages of explanations compelling, nothing will change their minds.

That's because we don't see it as logic at all, but rationalizing the changing of the way many people play the game by penalizing them while removing the penalty for being less than bright. No one gets vulched, or whacked at a spawn (more than once) unless they choose to....

I have agreed with you on many previous issues, but this isn't one of them.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #291 on: July 30, 2008, 09:35:58 PM »
In short, I don't care if people get score or not however you are missing the point and thinking too much about the "score" it's self. Regardless of the topic title and the idea, you need to see past that and understand the goal in the end. This idea isn't so much about the score system but making the game better and producing better sticks in the long run. This game is based off a score reward system, you get points or score for doing various things and that is the only reason score is even involved because that's the only tool the game has to reward players with.

Now for the long part...

Game play IMO has gone down hill and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this, regardless of what your opinion is on it. I think score is a big reason for this, because it's obvious how people go out of their way to pad their stats in one way or another. Others may not pad their stats but instead they are scared to get into any engagements where they don't have an advantage, so they run away from the fight. Others may fly in the safety of their hoard to gang bang some lone con and have little risk of dying.

In short this game is going further and further away from learning real ACM and actually fighting, to nothing but hoards running from one gangbang to the next while doing suicide ack runs just to get a vulch on. It's almost always 70% to 80% of country A beating up on country B then B doing it to C and C doing it to A. Then we have probably 80% of the bases captured that are taken by NOE raids or some lone guy in a flack trying to sneak a base while no one is looking.

In other words this game and the current system is encouraging people not to fight. Vulching is just another thing that stops a fight because 9 times out of 10 a vulched field was vulched just for the easy kills and almost never ends with a base capture. So in other words it's just lazy tards that likely can't kill 4 to 5 guys in a single sortie air to air, but they want to reap easy kills on a runway, to get their name in lights.

You can read right here that saantana openly admits he vulches for score. Rather than learn and get better it's easier to just go milk hoard and be a vulch and gang tard. There are countless people just like him in the MA's and they have been steadily turning the MA into a skill-less hoard that couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack with a butcher knife unless they have 5 gangbang buddies flying Niki's with them. (not to pick on saantana but he's the one in here admitting to it, so he gets used as the example)

Granted this game has a high learning cure and it takes time to get good, but isn't that the point? I mean this game isn't Air Quake after all is it? The problem is the game keeps degrading into the hoard mentality, new players see other guys vulching, HOing and generally being a tard so they end up falling into that trap bringing the community one step further down the ladder. Rather than developing their skills because they get beat by the really good sticks and want to get better, it's easier to just go vulch or be a hoard monkey. I mean hell they end up with the same WTG's on 200 and a nice score so where is the incentive to actual learn ACM and fight for the kills?

I'll give you an example.. There was some new guy that posted on the forum a week or so ago all happy about wanting to be a p51 stick and learning ACM and the whole nine yards. A lot of us gave him suggestions and a pat on the back and sent him on his way to becoming the next AH ace of aces. Meanwhile a week or so later I see him in the MA diving in from 10k trying to vulch guys on the runway, I was co alt and ended up running him down and killing him. Now he could have tried to fight me in a 1 on 1. I'm sure he would have died lol, but hell I think he might have learned something. However instead he took the easy "try" to vulch and still died learning nothing in the process other than he probably needs to run faster.

Vulching and hoarding with 10 guys chasing one lone con breed this kind of skill less flying in the MA's. The new guys come in see the other guys doing it and think that's what this game is all about. Maybe just maybe if a noob sticks around a year or so he might eventually realize that there is much more to ACM than HOing and vulching. Then just maybe if we are lucky he might become someone who adds to the community rather than just be part of the problem he is replicating.

That is what this 30 seconds idea is about. It's not really about score that's just the tool, it's about trying to help make this game better and build a community that focuses on actually fighting and developing their ACM skills vs just being a bunch Ho & vulch dweebs stealing bases in the middle of the night for the 20 perk reset. In short the community is only as good as it's members and It's my opinion this community needs to start striving to be better sticks rather than striving for the easiest way to score points.

Granted this 30 seconds idea wouldn't do all that but at least maybe it could be a step n the right direction by not rewarding people for doing one of the dweebist things in the game.

Excellent post Strafing, I think we should just leave it at this. HiTech will do whatever he thinks is best for gameplay, the idea and the problem have been acknowledged by him. I trust his judgement. I've been through this type of argument before where you have 3 or 4 vocal people vehemently opposed trying to drag a really great idea through the mud because if implimented it would severely cramp their style. Don't let them do it...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:40:10 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #292 on: July 30, 2008, 09:38:06 PM »
Excellent post Strafing, I think we should just leave it at this. HiTech will do whatever he thinks is best for gameplay, the idea and the problem have been acknowledged by him. I trust his judgement.

Again, you think taking vacant bases in hordes is ruining the game and that there aren't any fights to be had.  If that is the case, for the 4th time I think, where is the uproar by the general community about this?
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #293 on: July 30, 2008, 09:39:33 PM »
See this would work but the reason they are approaching it with this 30 sec BS is because they aren't really being honest.  The truth is they think vulchers skew the scores/ranks and they don't like this.

Is that what your whole argument is about, because you think I secretly want to be number #1 and think doing away with vulchers will get me there? lol that's laughable at best because if I was lucky to maybe get into the top 50 on the fighter score if we did away with vulch tards.

However yes I if you really want to hear it, I don't want vulch tards to get score from vulching. Does that make you feel better that I said it? Hell man if that's what your whole argument was about we could have save 5 pages of useless babbling.

Until you understand this idea isn't really about score, you just wont get it.
"strafing"

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #294 on: July 30, 2008, 09:40:26 PM »
Well there's a way to win people over to your point of view.  Put them in the inexperienced child role, and you play the benevolent parent  :rolleyes:

So is your diaper dirty?
"strafing"

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #295 on: July 30, 2008, 09:43:33 PM »

Game play IMO has gone down hill and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this, regardless of what your opinion is on it.

I didn't say the game wasn't going down hill.  I said the 30 second rule is rediculous and that I am against any rules that try to force a person who is not exploiting to change their game play.

Are you going to add a little 30 second clock to everyone's icon?  

The game has changed because the demographics has changed. You didn't change with them, me either.

Answer me this:  why does the guy who is helping take a base, kills acks in the process, not deserve to get points/perks for vulching thereafter?
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #296 on: July 30, 2008, 09:44:13 PM »
I dis agree with that.. It's a very fine line of ack that can momentarily stop vulches vs having ack so strong the uppers just hide in it. Look at CV's for a perfect example of that, how many times do CV battles end up with the attackers hiding in their ack waiting for their 5 inch buddies to kill you off.

The fastest way to kill a furball is to bring a CV right on top of the base it's trying to attack.

So, what you appear to be inferring is that but for the CV ack, you'd be vulching them on the carrier. If they are hiding in the ack, it's likely that they cannot get out of it without being ganged. Moreover, if you don't want to get clobbered by 5" guns, don't fly so close. Then, the guys using the ack for protection would likely come out, wouldn't they?

Personally, I think you're SOL on this one.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #297 on: July 30, 2008, 09:44:19 PM »
In your very first post, at the top of the thread you said this:
This has nothing to do with game play, this is about score, period.

Yet you still can't see the forest for the trees.. sorry man I'm done arguing with you about, it's getting no where. I went out of my way to explain to you in detail and you just can't accept it for what it is, so it's useless explaining any further.
"strafing"

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #298 on: July 30, 2008, 09:44:36 PM »
Is that what your whole argument is about, because you think I secretly want to be number #1 and think doing away with vulchers will get me there?

No, I think you think the scoring system isn't really a fair representation of people's skills because you feel vulchers skew the ranks.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #299 on: July 30, 2008, 09:46:21 PM »
Yet you still can't see the forest for the trees..

Well that's what you said.. in context.

Quote
sorry man I'm done arguing with you

Uhhh I didn't know we were arguing.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve