Adjustment to Scoring (idea)

[Zazen13]

No, you are not.  You sure are full of yourself, aren't you?


Where's the community uproar about this?  I've asked you this repeatedly and you've ignored it. You do not represent the community. You have not been appointed the community rep.  Only you and a couple of others are on board for this and even your small group cannot agree on the reason for implementing it.

Steve, no offense buddy. But, I am not responding to you anymore. You are being arbitrary, personally insulting, argumentative and you're repeating yourself ad nauseam. For no other apparent reason than repeating yourself and not in a "creative exploration" sense that facilitates constructive debate. But, in a perfunctory and snide way that facilitates pissing contests, which I have absolutely no interest in participating in...

I never really intended to post again after the Vehicle spawn example post, but I felt I owed WideWing the courtesy of a reply because of my deep respect for him personally...

EDIT: PS: Steve, Me declining to muddy this worthy idea and thread by condescending to your, "internet tough guy bullying tactics", by getting into a personal pissing contest with you is not you winning "anything" much less a line of argument. This isn't an escalating, testosterone soaked, bar room contest that crescendos into a broken bottle barfight. This is a civil discussion whereby everyone who ingenuously participates wins, no one loses. How you could possibly think pulling some "truncated for effect" quotes out of context to insinuate nonexistent personal motivations for subterfuge is even "debating", much less "winning" I don't know.  But, I now have some powerful insights into why you allegedly don't perceive a downward spiral of gameplay.

[Steve]

Steve, no offense buddy. But, I am not responding to you anymore. You are being arbitrary, personally insulting, argumentative and you're repeating yourself ad nausea. For no other apparent reason than repeating yourself and not in a "creative exploration" way that facilitates constructive debate, but in a perfunctory and snide way that facilitates pissing contests, which I have absolutely no interest in participating in...

I never really intended to post again after by Vehicle spawn post, but I felt I owed WideWing the courtesy of a reply because of my deep respect for him personally...

No offense taken.  This is pretty much the only option left for you since you cannot admit defeat or failure. By the way, it's "ad nauseam".

Pretending to be above the discussion is the only way you can avoid actually addressing the counterpoints given to your argument. Unfortunately, only the dull or disinterested would miss this.  I am neither. You may go now.

[Urchin]

AH has been a caricature of its former self for... well, probably forever I imagine. 

I've burned myself out on this game to the point that the only thing that ever brings me back is new planes, and then only for a week or so.  I actually enjoyed the little FFA area in the DA more than any of the arenas my last trip back... I don't believe I even logged into the MA for about 6 months before I just cancelled the account. 

I suspect that for most people the game starts out as a 'air combat game', but once they get their bellybutton handed to them the first 5 or 6 flights they give up and it becomes and lemming sort of game, where you find a large green horde and join it.

It would be hard to say that the average skill level hasn't dropped precipitously over the years.. I play maybe 1 week a year now and I'm still better at fighting than about 99.5% of the people I ran into in the FFA area (there was actually only one guy that could really me a hard time, and that was Badboy in his various incarnations) - and they are there to fight (or at least do their best imitation).

HT has no incentive to change the gameplay, I don't really see why he would concern himself with a population of people who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.. as long as that number keeps growing.  The cold, hard truth is that MOST of the people who play this game enjoy the gameplay - simply because if they didn't, they wouldn't play.

[Zazen13]

HT has no incentive to change the gameplay, I don't really see why he would concern himself with a population of people who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.. as long as that number keeps growing.  The cold, hard truth is that MOST of the people who play this game enjoy the gameplay - simply because if they didn't, they wouldn't play.

The problem with this is, some just don't know it was/can be better than it is. No one is arguing this is not a great game. I love it dearly myself. If we didn't love it not only wouldn't we play, we wouldn't spend hours writing passionately about ideas to make it even better on these forums.

There has to be a compromise between "easy accessability to the masses" and "maintaining the integrity of the game design concepts for the genre purists". When you concede too much of the latter to appease the former it initiates a self-re-inforcing cycle. The more gameplay is allowed to degrade  the more people addicted to gratification without effort join and stay, but also the more those that aspire to a higher level of gameplay, like yourself, leave in droves and never come back. It doesn't take long before the design concept has been compromised so much by the lower common denominator of players it becomes irretrievable from the abyss. Many MMOG's have fallen by the wayside in exactly this way. We owe it to HTC and our community to do whatever we can to prevent that toilet boil effect from swallowing our collective passion that is AH.

[crockett]

AH has been a caricature of its former self for... well, probably forever I imagine. 

I've burned myself out on this game to the point that the only thing that ever brings me back is new planes, and then only for a week or so.  I actually enjoyed the little FFA area in the DA more than any of the arenas my last trip back... I don't believe I even logged into the MA for about 6 months before I just cancelled the account. 

I suspect that for most people the game starts out as a 'air combat game', but once they get their bellybutton handed to them the first 5 or 6 flights they give up and it becomes and lemming sort of game, where you find a large green horde and join it.

It would be hard to say that the average skill level hasn't dropped precipitously over the years.. I play maybe 1 week a year now and I'm still better at fighting than about 99.5% of the people I ran into in the FFA area (there was actually only one guy that could really me a hard time, and that was Badboy in his various incarnations) - and they are there to fight (or at least do their best imitation).

HT has no incentive to change the gameplay, I don't really see why he would concern himself with a population of people who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.. as long as that number keeps growing.  The cold, hard truth is that MOST of the people who play this game enjoy the gameplay - simply because if they didn't, they wouldn't play.

Man granted I agree with you on the skill level but the DA Furball lake is a joke anymore. The skill level there is a bit lower than what's in the MA  IMHO. Hell there are now squads in the DA that do nothing but climb to 15k and then try to gangbang lone fighters so they can land kills. DA Furball Lake is a bigger joke than the MA at most times. Every once in a while you can find a good stick or two in there but it's not very often.

I think the DA FB lake has turned into a extreeme example of where the MA is heading.

[Urchin]

The problem with this is, some just don't know it was/can be better than it is. No one is arguing this is not a great game. I love it dearly myself. If we didn't love it not only wouldn't we play, we wouldn't spend hours writing passionately about ideas to make it even better on these forums.

There has to be a compromise between "easy accessability to the masses" and "maintaining the integrity of the game design concepts for the genre purists". When you concede too much of the latter to appease the former it initiates a self-re-inforcing cycle. The more gameplay is allowed to degrade  the more people addicted to gratification without effort join and stay, but also the more those that aspire to a higher level of gameplay, like yourself, leave in droves and never come back. It doesn't take long before the design concept has been compromised so much by the lower common denominator of players it becomes irretrievable from the abyss. Many MMOG's have fallen by the wayside in exactly this way. We owe it to HTC and our community to do whatever we can to prevent that toilet boil effect from swallowing our collective passion that is AH.

I think I've probably been replaced at least tenfold.  The heyday of the game for me was when the average MA population was 150 at peak times.  The game has more than likely never been healthier than now, from a financial standpoint.  So while AH is not a successful 'air combat' game (at least not from my perspective) it is a very successful niche game, and odds are it will remain so.

[Zazen13]

I think I've probably been replaced at least tenfold.  The heyday of the game for me was when the average MA population was 150 at peak times.  The game has more than likely never been healthier than now, from a financial standpoint.  So while AH is not a successful 'air combat' game (at least not from my perspective) it is a very successful niche game, and odds are it will remain so.

But, it can be both if the collective will to make it so is there. The trick would be to not wait for mass panic and hysteria before tweaking it periodically like what precipitated some other major fundamental changes historically. This will help maintain community stability and gently keep the game equally appealing to air combat purists and addicts to gratification without effort simultaneously. Then financial success and game design integrity are both assured without the risk of permanently disenfranchising major categories of patrons.

[Vudak]

But, it can be both if the collective will to make it so is there.

Yeah, but this isn't there.  Horses and water...

You can't make people try, and really, when it all boils down, that's what you're hoping will happen if you change the scoring in this way.  You're hoping that people who go for score will make for "better fights" simply because the option to vulch for score is no longer available to them.  It's an interesting theory.  It might even work for a few people.  Even so,

It won't change those that run, run, run away and then turn around for a hot merge;

It won't change those that run away from a single con, call for help, and THEN turn back into single con;

It won't change those that are ok gangbanging you, but run from any chance of being ganged themselves; and

It won't change those that vulch just for the heck of it, anyway.

Basically, it's not going to affect the game in a positive way, at all.  To be honest, I see this as just a way to pee in Pacerr et al's cheerios.  After all, they will be the ones that feel the pinch.  The majority of the customer base...  IE, the blissfully ignorant, willful or not, will still happily continue doing the same things they have always done.  Why?  Because that's what they do every night - stands to reason that's what they enjoy doing, or they wouldn't do it.  It's what's fun for them.

Changing around the scoring parameters will not get the masses to all of a sudden find your type of fun, their type of fun.  It won't get them to put in the effort to learn how to do that.  It won't all of a sudden turn them into the type of glutton for punishment personality required to get good at the "purist" aspects of this game.  The majority will still be just as timid and clueless as they are today.  No change in scoring is going to change that.

And really, if the point is to increase the amount of "purists" or "dogfighters" or "people who actually care to try and improve," why don't we actually try some things that might accomplish that instead of just taking away the ball from a certain group of people, just because they enjoy what we don't?

You want to see gameplay change?  You want to encourage people to try out "our" way of having fun?  Stop using terms like "purist."  The good sticks already come off as the aristocracy of this place.  Fewer in number yet larger in assumed importance, or at least that's the impression I've noticed many, many "plebs" get...  Just look at how many people view the DA as an ego fest.

And you know, Zazen, I don't want you to feel like I'm picking on you or singling you out, and I certainly don't want you to think that I believe I'm above that "purist" mentality myself, because I'm certainly not.  There are more than my fair share of quotes, threads, and 200 jabs out there that squarely put me in it...  Still, if I really want to do MY part to help keep this game fun for ME, I'D sure better make the effort to develop a longer fuze and less condescending attitude.

[Zazen13]

It won't change those that run, run, run away and then turn around for a hot merge;

It won't change those that run away from a single con, call for help, and THEN turn back into single con;

It won't change those that are ok gangbanging you, but run from any chance of being ganged themselves; and

It won't change those that vulch just for the heck of it, anyway.

I agree with all of that. In fact, that's the point. Improving gameplay without getting to the point of making huge and dramatic changes in reaction to mass hysteria to problems unnecessarily allowed to spin out of control. Instead, proactively tweaking gameplay one minor change at a time before the problem reaches the point of implosion. In this way you can avoid the classic, over-correction that happens when you start to lose control of your car on a slippery road.

[Shane]

Yeah, but this isn't there.  Horses and water...

You can't make people try, and really, when it all boils down, that's what you're hoping will happen if you change the scoring in this way.  You're hoping that people who go for score will make for "better fights" simply because the option to vulch for score is no longer available to them.  It's an interesting theory.  It might even work for a few people.  Even so,

It won't change those that run, run, run away and then turn around for a hot merge;

It won't change those that run away from a single con, call for help, and THEN turn back into single con;

It won't change those that are ok gangbanging you, but run from any chance of being ganged themselves; and

It won't change those that vulch just for the heck of it, anyway.

Basically, it's not going to affect the game in a positive way, at all.  To be honest, I see this as just a way to pee in Pacerr et al's cheerios.  After all, they will be the ones that feel the pinch.  The majority of the customer base...  IE, the blissfully ignorant, willful or not, will still happily continue doing the same things they have always done.  Why?  Because that's what they do every night - stands to reason that's what they enjoy doing, or they wouldn't do it.  It's what's fun for them.

Changing around the scoring parameters will not get the masses to all of a sudden find your type of fun, their type of fun.  It won't get them to put in the effort to learn how to do that.  It won't all of a sudden turn them into the type of glutton for punishment personality required to get good at the "purist" aspects of this game.  The majority will still be just as timid and clueless as they are today.  No change in scoring is going to change that.

And really, if the point is to increase the amount of "purists" or "dogfighters" or "people who actually care to try and improve," why don't we actually try some things that might accomplish that instead of just taking away the ball from a certain group of people, just because they enjoy what we don't?

You want to see gameplay change?  You want to encourage people to try out "our" way of having fun?  Stop using terms like "purist."  The good sticks already come off as the aristocracy of this place.  Fewer in number yet larger in assumed importance, or at least that's the impression I've noticed many, many "plebs" get...  Just look at how many people view the DA as an ego fest.

And you know, Zazen, I don't want you to feel like I'm picking on you or singling you out, and I certainly don't want you to think that I believe I'm above that "purist" mentality myself, because I'm certainly not.  There are more than my fair share of quotes, threads, and 200 jabs out there that squarely put me in it...  Still, if I really want to do MY part to help keep this game fun for ME, I'D sure better make the effort to develop a longer fuze and less condescending attitude.

did you get into the estrogen pills again?   

j/k  it's an astute observation.

[Zazen13]

I'm guessing he doesn't have one, he probably just has way too much time on his hands and would be equally happy to argue either side. 

Badboy

Actually, although this is definitely not the case on this particular topic, it is true in general. I have been on medical leave for a while, so have had lots of time to express myself. I could also debate anything. I could come up with a compelling argument that society would be vastly improved if all men changed their names to Orville, wore crotchless leather chaps and wielded a riding crop.

[Steve]

I could come up with a compelling argument that society would be vastly improved if all men changed their names to Orville, wore crotchless leather chaps and wielded a riding crop.

If it were truly compelling, I might just have to shoot you.