Test Question for anyone

[mechanic]

it doesnt matter how good the enemy is the fact is still true. The earlier you start evading the more time you give them to adjust and spoiling someone's aim at the last minute is more effective than giving them time to line up another shot.

[dentin]

Who says he was anywhere near "skilled enough to get on your six"?  Just because he's behind you doesn't mean he got there on his own, hehe!  Hopefully he thinks he did, but that doesn't mean he's right...

The speed differential 2bighorn is referring to is his speed being greater than your own, not yours being greater than his.  If you handle the situation correctly, and he handles it poorly, his greater speed can be used against him.  If he's behind you, and you're faster than him, you don't really have a problem do you?

Even if you don't have a speed differential, you can make it appear as if you do (or at least have the same effect) by altering his angle of approach (turn, so he approaches from your side).  In fact, that's how I prefer to do it myself- I like to appear slower than I am.  Mechanic/Batfink has some uber laser-accurate eyeball assisted sighting system that allows him to kill people as they go by- I don't, so need to have enough speed after the overshoot to catch/kill my victim.  It does me no good to have my victim overshoot me, and be so slow myself that I can't keep up with him.  So I need to get the overshoot but still be at least nearly as fast as him, so he can't get away!

  Hmmm, IF, the following statement is true "Just because he's behind you doesn't mean he got there on his own, hehe!"..exactly "who" put him on your six..the "Tooth Fairy"?? 

 I think Messiah has the correct answer to the question posed by Mechanic,to wit: "Just do what I do and flop around until the enemy gives up."    OR just stick your hand out the cockpit and signal for a left turn and then swing right...sorry, couldn't resist..been a fun day .   

[Steve]

The only "positive advantage" I can think of is, you at least know WHERE he is. IF said attacker is/was skilled enough to get on your six you have lost the advantage. As I think some one has already indicated SPEED might serve as a tool to shake the bad pilet off your butt and on to someone else. ...

I think most of us are assuming if the person is on your 6, they have more energy than you. In this, case, where a higher enrgy plane is attacking, this is exactly where I want him... hard on my 6. whatever my move is, he has to perform it harder to pull lead. That means more E burned, maybe some black out, maybe my plane slips under his nose where I then change vector and shake him for reversal or overshoot... etc.

[mtnman]

  Hmmm, IF, the following statement is true "Just because he's behind you doesn't mean he got there on his own, hehe!"..exactly "who" put him on your six..the "Tooth Fairy"?? 

 I think Messiah has the correct answer to the question posed by Mechanic,to wit: "Just do what I do and flop around until the enemy gives up."    OR just stick your hand out the cockpit and signal for a left turn and then swing right...sorry, couldn't resist..been a fun day .   

Since this is the "Help and Training Forum" I'll take your reply seriously Dentin, even though I suspect you're just playin' games here...

He's "put" there by me, through my maneuvering.  I simply turn away from him so he can start out on my six.  I could "put" him anywhere I want to in relation to me, simply by maneuvering.  If I want him behind me, but he's unable to catch me, I'll turn slightly to give him a "corner" to cut across, "allowing" him to catch me.  If I want him in front of me, I turn towards him.  Quite simple, really.  The vast majority (90% or more?) of pilots who find themselves behind me (usually through my doing) will start out behind me, then be on my right side, then under me, then in front of me, and then in the tower.

I'm as likely to "give" someone my six as I am to merge in a more normal nose-nose fashion.  Why not?  It works far more often then not; for me as well as for many other pilots.  Mechanic/BatfinkV showed you how at the beginning of the thread.  

Often, I actually prefer my opponent to start on my six, so I will turn to "put" him there, or at least make it very easy for him to get there, and difficult/impossible for him to approach me from any other angle.  If I point away from him, how can he merge from my nose or side?  In short, if he wants to kill me he needs to approach from my rear, because I said so by turning away.  I'm dictating the angle he approaches me from.  Beyond that, I actually want him to think he got there on his own, and that I'm trying to get away, and that he's in control of the situation.  In truth I already have him reacting to me, which is generally a bad idea (for him).

If your SA is adequate, it should be practically impossible for anyone to get behind you without your knowledge.  Personally, I've got decent tabs on anyone within 6k of me, and "hyper-sensitivity" to anyone within 4k.  And a very good idea of what's going on within a sector of me.  I may not have a choice over whether or not a guy 4k away from me will attack me, but if he does, I do have a choice over which angle (relative to me) that he approaches from.  I can choose to have him attack from my rear (by turning away from him), or from my front (by turning towards him).  If attackers "get" behind you without your knowledge, or close enough to you so you can't control the angle they approach from (at least in 1v1's or 1v2's), I'd say you should look at improving your SA.  If you're getting ganged you obviously have no control over most of the situation, but getting ganged hints at SA problems too (unless you want to be ganged, I suppose).

If you know an attacker is present, and turn so he can't attack from any angle other than from behind you, you've effectively "put" him behind you, at least from your perspective.  He's attacking you from the angle you want him to attack you from.

MtnMan

[BaldEagl]

There's too many assumptions being made here.  Any good stick, with proper throttle control, ACM and E management is going to be next to impossible to shake and you really hold no advantages in that case (depending on plane match-up of course).

Against beginner to average pilots you may be able to control the opening to the fight. 

Of course, a late break against a high speed opponent will work against anyone for at least a moment but again, you are assuming that your opponent is carrying much more speed than you.  Even if he is and decides not to burn off E on approach he has options to remain on your six; lag pusuit, barrel roll, vertical manouvers, etc. which effectively take control back out of your hands.  He holds the E advantage and can control the fight.

[2bighorn]

it doesnt matter how good the enemy is the fact is still true. The earlier you start evading the more time you give them to adjust and spoiling someone's aim at the last minute is more effective than giving them time to line up another shot.

I gave answer to your original question:
"What aspect of being attacked from your 6 o'clock is a positive advantage one holds over the attacker?"

My answer was speed differential, or to quote Steve: "I think most of us are assuming if the person is on your 6, they have more energy than you."

Now, what you do with that, it's a whole another story and depends on many other things, like type of planes, closure rate, etc...

No other answers are possible to your very generic question.

Everything else is speculation, unless you define situation in more detail.


I'll just add that attacker is usually in more control than attacked due to E and positional advantage.

[BnZ]

We seem to love the overshoot kill alot in AHII, I guess its a cultural thing. Rather arbitrary if you think about it, we could just easily love a kill on a difficult FQ/HO shot

But yeah, there are alot of people in the MA with bad aim, no throttle control, and no clear plan diving in. (You MUST decide: Can I and am I going to dump E and saddle up or keep E and zoom as soon as it is apparent there is no shot?-"walking down the middle of the road" gets you squished.) Most important rule: Always fly like the other guy is the Red Baron.

And Batfink can hit an under-sized sparrow doing an oblique Split-S at 800 yards, so overshoot snapshots are not a problem for him. Influences his philosophy of flight no doubt.

[2bighorn]

And Batfink can hit an under-sized sparrow doing an oblique Split-S at 800 yards, so overshoot snapshots are not a problem for him. Influences his philosophy of flight no doubt.

Aye, but just because Batfink and few other select experts can control fight no matter their position, it is still very wrong to transmit message to us less fortunate, saying the best way to control fight is to let somebody on your six.

Some vets do that because sometimes that's the only way to get somebody to fight. They know that odds to meet somebody equal in skill are very slim.

[mtnman]

Of course, a late break against a high speed opponent will work against anyone for at least a moment but again, you are assuming that your opponent is carrying much more speed than you.  Even if he is and decides not to burn off E on approach he has options to remain on your six; lag pusuit, barrel roll, vertical manouvers, etc. which effectively take control back out of your hands.  He holds the E advantage and can control the fight.

I'm not assuming he's carrying more speed than me, in fact I don't want him to be too much faster than me.  His speed diferential isn't nearly as important (to me) as his rate of closure, which I can control by the angle I allow him to approach from.  Personally, I seldom use a "hard, late, break turn", and I seldom get serious about killing the guy behind me if he's too much faster than me.  I'd rather equalize our speeds first.  I actually go into a slight dive to build my own speed before trying the overshoot.  He can be at the same speed as me (and I'd prefer he is) and the overshoot still works fine.  I just initiate a turn so he approaches from my side.  His rate of closure gives me the overshoot, not his overall speed.

Will it work against every pilot in every situation?  Nope!  But for the overwhelming majority it will.  Is there any maneuver that will always work?  Unless there is- EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION ON ACM IN COMBAT REQUIRES ASSUMPTIONS AND SPECULATION...  Not so different than life in general, is it?  We can make "informed guesses" or specualtions based on past results/performance, but how often do we really "know"?  I assume/speculate that if I drive carefully I'll make it home from work...  Is it a guarantee?

IMO, aerial combat is nothing more than a game of "rock, paper, scissors" with the difference that we can swap the rock for the paper or scissors as many times as we want until final contact is made.  I want to let you see me going for the rock so you grab the paper, when I really intended to go with the scissors.  

[mtnman]

Aye, but just because Batfink and few other select experts can control fight no matter their position, it is still very wrong to transmit message to us less fortunate, saying the best way to control fight is to let somebody on your six.

Some vets do that because sometimes that's the only way to get somebody to fight. They know that odds to meet somebody equal in skill are very slim.

I'd agree 100% that it's not the safest/best way to control the fight.  The advantages of alt/speed are pretty constant.  However, I think it's fine to show people that there are ways to prevail even if you're not the high, fast plane.  And to explain why, and how to succeed at it.  And things you can do as the low/slow guy to negate some of the attackers advantages.

The fact is, you're not completely helpless/defenseless just because someone is on your six.

[mtnman]

Against beginner to average pilots you may be able to control the opening to the fight. 

What if both pilots are experts, can anyone have control?

[2bighorn]

I'd agree 100% that it's not the safest/best way to control the fight.  The advantages of alt/speed are pretty constant.  However, I think it's fine to show people that there are ways to prevail even if you're not the high, fast plane.  And to explain why, and how to succeed at it.  And things you can do as the low/slow guy to negate some of the attackers advantages.
The fact is, you're not completely helpless/defenseless just because someone is on your six.

True, but that topic goes under overshoot and reversal and in every book I've read about ACM, those are clearly categorized as defensive maneuvers (for a good reason).

What if both pilots are experts, can anyone have control?

Clearly the guy with more E and/or better position has more control. If he let that slip out of his hands, then somewhere, somehow, he did a big mistake.

[Bosco123]

What I do, if a con is on my 6, which is VERY efective, is a very high, slow reversal. I begin by pulling the con into the turn, when he dosn't have guns on you any more, I level and begin turning back the other with a high angle of attack. Depending on what he does next, I either pull down on his 6, or we begin doing vertical scissors, but by then you already have the advantage, so it should be an easy kill. This is all depending on the pilot skill.

[Steve]

And Batfink can hit an under-sized sparrow doing an oblique Split-S at 800 yards, so overshoot snapshots are not a problem for him. Influences his philosophy of flight no doubt.

I got lucky last night then. He missed my deadstick pony after I killed his mossie wingie. I evades soulyss's pass and got him tin the vert as he tried to stay over me.. got him as  I ran out of gas at the top, stalling away.  Batfink got 5 others in that mossie though, and made it home to land. <S>
 

[Steve]

What I do, if a con is on my 6, which is VERY efective, is a very high, slow reversal. I begin by pulling the con into the turn, when he dosn't have guns on you any more, I level and begin turning back the other with a high angle of attack. Depending on what he does next, I either pull down on his 6, or we begin doing vertical scissors, but by then you already have the advantage, so it should be an easy kill. This is all depending on the pilot skill.