Author Topic: Waffen SS Squad?  (Read 11834 times)

Offline saantana

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 763
      • Dywizjon 308
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2008, 02:41:46 AM »
I didn't want to stirr up a heated argument. But I have to make some quotes to address the statements that bombing killed the most civilians. They are simply false and misguided, by a very,very big margin. Please let me correct you.

Quote
In World War II, strategic aerial bombardment claimed the lives of over 160,000 Allied airmen in the European theatre,[9] 60,595 British civilians and between 305,000 and 600,000 German civilians, [10][11] while American precision bombing, fire bombing and atomic bombing in Japan killed between 330,000 and 500,000 Japanese civilians

Heres some stats for you. This is civilians only, not counting men in arms.

Quote
Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million

This is to address that bombing is similar to SS activity. Many people sideline the eastern front and what was happening in occupied lands, not just in Poland but in the Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and in the occupied Soviet Union. It was there that the Waffen SS commited their most well known war crimes. And that is regardless what kind of 'cool' tanks they were driving. Sorry thats just absurd.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 02:45:10 AM by saantana »
Saantana
308 Polish Squadron RAF
http://dywizjon308.servegame.org

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept my faith"

Offline iWalrus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2008, 02:46:37 AM »
In my mind there's a pretty big difference between saying, "Bomb this city," and "Shoot this particular family in the head."

Really? What is the difference? The only difference that pops immediately into my mind, as someone pointed out, is that bombs kill a lot more people. Is it ok to kill people when you are too far away to see it happening? Do you think the bomber crews were so stupid that they didn't realize they were killing lots of people?

Why not be just as deeply offended by a squad name that has anything to do with bombs or bombing?
That's all.

WalrusG

Offline Anodizer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2008, 02:47:32 AM »
Personally, I don't think it is/was anyones intention to offend anyone by creating this squad..  Some people just have a fascination with the German military of WWII along with its hardware, soldiers, and actions (valiant, honorable, or otherwise)..  However, I agree that the political and religious connotations of having a squad called the Waffen SS is a bit inappropriate, what ever the intention.... 

Incidentally, we have 3 109 skins with swastikas on them..   

I like classy, beautiful, intelligent woman that say the "F" word a lot....

80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2008, 02:50:36 AM »
Incidentally, we have 3 109 skins with swastikas on them..   

Those are Finnish 109s and their swastika was a different symbol, used before the Nazis came around.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline saantana

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 763
      • Dywizjon 308
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2008, 02:53:33 AM »
Really? What is the difference? The only difference that pops immediately into my mind, as someone pointed out, is that bombs kill a lot more people. Is it ok to kill people when you are too far away to see it happening? Do you think the bomber crews were so stupid that they didn't realize they were killing lots of people?

Why not be just as deeply offended by a squad name that has anything to do with bombs or bombing?

There is a big difference walrus.
Read my previous statement.
Saantana
308 Polish Squadron RAF
http://dywizjon308.servegame.org

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept my faith"

Offline TheMan

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2008, 02:54:19 AM »
Does anyone else find the squad 'Waffen SS' offending?


I absolutely agree with you , but I still find it rather harsh to say I dont like yo. If they like the name let them have it , if they like nazism let um have it. End of story , the way you think is how World War 2 started , everyone hates nazis so they fight them. I think that this game is suppost to be fun and not suppost to take things so seriously

Offline iWalrus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2008, 02:55:06 AM »
I didn't want to stirr up a heated argument. But I have to make some quotes to address the statements that bombing killed the most civilians. They are simply false and misguided, by a very,very big margin. Please let me correct you.

Heres some stats for you. This is civilians only, not counting men in arms.

This is to address that bombing is similar to SS activity. Many people sideline the eastern front and what was happening in occupied lands, not just in Poland but in the Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and in the occupied Soviet Union. It was there that the Waffen SS commited their most well known war crimes. And that is regardless what kind of 'cool' tanks they were driving. Sorry thats just absurd.

Since only a million and a half or so were all that were killed, I guess that's fine. If it were 2 million I would be offended.
That's all.

WalrusG

Offline iWalrus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2008, 02:58:35 AM »
There is a big difference walrus.
Read my previous statement.

Ah yes, I see. It is ok to kill 1 to 2 million humans, but not 11 million.
That's all.

WalrusG

Offline saantana

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 763
      • Dywizjon 308
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2008, 03:03:35 AM »
Ah yes, I see. It is ok to kill 1 to 2 million humans, but not 11 million.

What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line. In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.
Saantana
308 Polish Squadron RAF
http://dywizjon308.servegame.org

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept my faith"

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2008, 03:12:49 AM »
a dead civilian is a dead civilian, the US and brits knew they were killing civilians in the mass bombing anf firebombing raids just as the waffen SS squads (that participated as such) knew they were killing civilians aswell..

in fact, all told, and if you count the pacific theater, im pretty sure the US killed FAR more civilians than the WaffenSS did..

but the winners write the history books, so it was the SS that were evil.

You can't even make that comparison.  There's a big difference between carpet bombing to bring an opponent to their knees compared to mass genocide of a people.  In the first no one is exempt regardless of race, religion, etc.  In the second it's a matter of exterminating a particular group of people selectively.  The first is war, the second is hate/fear.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline iWalrus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2008, 03:21:54 AM »
What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line. In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.

I think that comparing them as similar is right in line, actually. The people dropping the bombs knew quite well that they were killing people.  You don't think the bomber crews were so delusional that they thought they were only destroying the buildings, and not the people inside?

So killing people because they are of a different "race" is somehow worse than killing people for other reasons?

I still fail to see how these are so different. Is one "meaner" than the other? Sorry, I just feel that killing people in droves is bad no matter how it is carried out. I think it is silly to be offended by a group because they killed people, and then not be offended by another group because they killed people in a different way.
That's all.

WalrusG

Offline iWalrus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2008, 03:34:48 AM »
You can't even make that comparison.  There's a big difference between carpet bombing to bring an opponent to their knees compared to mass genocide of a people.  In the first no one is exempt regardless of race, religion, etc.  In the second it's a matter of exterminating a particular group of people selectively.  The first is war, the second is hate/fear.

Killing people because you hate their race - bad. Killing people because you hate their government - acceptable. Got it.
That's all.

WalrusG

Offline evenhaim

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3329
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2008, 03:36:47 AM »
This needs not go any further, i studied WW2 and the holocaust in depth, the waffen SS may have been partially a decent combat unit, but it wasn't, no combat unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child, or better yet takes them on a train to relocation and just sprays them down with bullets above a readied mass grave, their actions where systematic and planned, a genocide period.
Freez/Freezman
Army of Muppets
I could strike down 1,000 bulletin board accounts in 5 seconds.
You want ownage, I'll give you ownage! -Skuzzy
I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

Offline BiPoLaR

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4132
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2008, 04:00:00 AM »
This needs not go any further, i studied WW2 and the holocaust in depth, the waffen SS may have been partially a decent combat unit, but it wasn't, no combat unit goes to a town and systematically executes every man women and child, or better yet takes them on a train to relocation and just sprays them down with bullets above a readied mass grave, their actions where systematic and planned, a genocide period.
I agree bro
R.I.P. T.E.Moore (Dad) 9-9-45 - 7-16-10.
R.I.P. Wes Poss  (Best Friend) 11-14-75 - 5-2-14

Offline sethipus

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 304
Re: Waffen SS Squad?
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2008, 04:05:52 AM »
What are you on about?
In none of my statements did I suggest any of the above are ok. However comparing them as similar is out of line.
One order of magnitude difference in the numbers does not render the actions dissimilar.  Since when do figures have to match precisely for two things to be similar?

Quote
In doing so you are suggesting a building being hit by an unguided bomb is the same as a families being executed because they are of a different 'race'. That is in my opinion quite delusional.
Why did that unguided bomb hit that building?  Because someone flew a bomber over to the city that building was in, aimed their crosshairs over a populated area filled with such buildings, and pushed a button that dropped a stick of such bombs with the specific intent that these buildings be hit, blown up, and the people inside killed.  And why were these people targeted?  Because they were Germans.

Look, I deplore what the Waffen SS did in the instances where they committed war crimes.  There's simply no question that these were heinous acts.  But to allow WWII military unit names as Aces High squadron names, in all cases but the instance where someone calls theirs "Waffen SS", and then call for that player to be banned, is ludicrous.

Should I be banned if I create a squadron called Wehrmacht?  That's the military organization that invaded Poland, France, Russia, and many others.  And don't tell me no war crimes were committed by members of the Wehrmacht.  And how about if I create a squadron called Luftwaffe?  Or Kriegsmarine?  For heaven's sake, German subs would torpedo ships and then observe survivors clinging to oily wreckage in the frigid water through the periscope, and then submerge and leave them to die.  So should I be banned if I name a squad U-bootwaffe?  What if I create an account and use the Doenitz?  Or what if I call myself VonBraun, do I get banned because his V1 and V2 "Vergeltungswaffen" (which basically means retribution weapons) rained death and terror on London and environs?

As I said in my previous post, the entire subject of World War II is filled with horrible actions and horrible circumstances, and horrible deaths.  To indulge in simulation of its combat with German and Japanese weaponry, allow German and Japanese unit names, etc. implies a level of comprehension of and exposure to the evil as well as the interesting (sometimes those overlap), virtuous, or otherwise noteworthy aspects of the subject.  I do find it rather stupid that, in this way, we immerse ourselves in World War II and then freak out when someone mentions the Waffen SS.

ps: Should I be banned if I made a squad and called it 23rd ID, because it was elements of the 23rd Infantry Division which committed the My Lai massacre in Vietname?