Waffen SS Squad?

[dentin]

Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.

Same pig with new lipstick. 

[Rich46yo]

How many Escadrille manned concentration camps were there exactly?

They didnt have the Jews long enough to setup concentration camps. They were turned over to the Nazis right away for "resettlement" in the east.

Course it was par for the course. The French have a long history of genocide. Either taking part or supporting it. In 1945 they slaughtered tens of thousands of Algerians and a few years later did the same in Madagascar. Cameron and Senegal were other African colonies harshly repressed by French colonial forces after WW-ll. And for the cherry on the cake type "France and Rwanda genocide" into a search engine and see what pops up.

[SmokinLoon]

Some of you are so blinded by populist media reports and Time-Life picture books on WWII that you have failed to take even a peek at what the Soviets and Chinese did.  I didnt say that the SS were innocent and I certainly did NOT defend them, I said what they did was far less than others comparatively but due to the attention given to the Nazis as THEE evil in the world a blind eye was turned towards the rest of the nation states that committed far worse (at least numerically, isnt it all about the numbers?) atrocities.  Keep in mind that it was the Nazi party leaders that handed down those policies and not imply battlefield justice.     

Do some legit research on what the Soviets did in Ukraine and its own political prisoners, find the actual numbers of how many were slaughtered and compare.  Do some legit research on what the Nationalist Chinese did to the peasants who supported the Red Chinese (and visa-versa) and find some raw numbers on how many were killed, the numbers are stagering.  The 6 million dead Jews and an estimated 2 million+ dead gypsies, commies, political prisoners, handicapped, gays, partisans, non German civilians (via the Germans), etc., do not equal the 21+ million dead Chinese, Ukrainians, and other noncombatants (granted, the Ukrainians were slaughtered just prior to German-Soviet WWII hostilities but it fits within the time frame of "The Final Solution") via the Soviets and Chinese.  Horrific, yes.  All the way around.  Were atrocities singular to the SS?  No, not hardly.  Keep in mind that it just wasnt the SS that carried out the will of the Nazi party leaders, the Wehrmacht did it fair share of raping, pillaging, and killing of noncombatants.  The worst, at least by ratio of troop to death of noncombatant were the Siberians.  They killed everything in their way, even Russian civilians.         

Bah... but dont listen to me.  I dont have a degree in WWII or anything.  I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2).  I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt).  I have no idea what I am speaking about.  I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books.  Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so.  But I will say my knowledge base if far greater than most here.       

Yeah, I may have come across a bit harsh by calling some of contributors of this thread "friggin whiners" for being "offended" by a unit calling themselves "SS", but I get a bit frustrated when so many times the big picture is not known by those quick on the draw to condemn.  The picture is far bigger than most of us realize.        

[SmokinLoon]

You base this on what?  Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things.  This thread made me take  "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf.  It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45.  A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches.  Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940.  After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered.  They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead.  2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.

That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'.  I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc. 

Seperate the two things though.  Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war.  They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.

"Kewl"?  I didnt make one mention of their uniforms or patches.  I certainly dont own or desire to own one bit of "SS" material.  The only 3 items I own with any Nazi symbols are a k98 rifle, a P38, and some 8mm Mauser ammo.  That is it.  I have absolutely have no more admiration of SS uniforms than I do British paras, Scottish infantry, ANZAC, or any other unit.  I'm not quite sure why you gathered that impression.  Oh... and btw, I never did get into the model craze.    

[Guppy35]

   
Bah... but dont listen to me.  I dont have a degree in WWII or anything.  I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2).  I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt).  I have no idea what I am speaking about.  I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books.  Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so.  But I will say my knowledge base if far greater than most here.       

Yeah, I may have come across a bit harsh by calling some of contributors of this thread "friggin whiners" for being "offended" by a unit calling themselves "SS", but I get a bit frustrated when so many times the big picture is not known by those quick on the draw to condemn.  The picture is far bigger than most of us realize.        

I'm guessing that this "friggen whiner" has spent as much time as yourself if not more on WW2, the vets and everything else.  So lets not throw knowledge base or lack thereof into the discussion. 
As for the "kewl" comment, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.  it was an acknowledgement of the fascination that the German military can have and saying that 30 some years ago I was thinking the Waffen SS etc was pretty 'kewl'.  I spent a lot of time on the Leibstandarte in particular but didn't stop there.  The more I learned, the less 'kewl' they got. 

The issue was whether a Waffen SS name for a squad here is appropriate.  It isn't in my opinion.    No one is saying that JG 54 or JG 11 or any of the luftwaffe squad names are out of line.  There is an aviation connection after all.  But trying to lump the Waffen SS into the 'just another military unit'  line doesn't work for me.

Keep in mind that the SS/Waffen SS was the will of the Nazi leaders, and  built to project their power and to maintain their control both within Germany and outside of it.  Hitler to Himmler and the Cronies who got the Division commands like Theodore Eicke and Sepp Dietrich.  That was the chain of command.  And it stayed that way.  SS units operated independently of other German military commands deliberately for a reason.

[Wyld45]

             Hitler had his "Mr.Nice guy" moments too. Watch the footage where he's out with Eva
             and the kids. Anyone need a reference book?...anyone?........hello?(cricket chirps)

[Oldman731]

Bah... but dont listen to me.  I dont have a degree in WWII or anything.  I didnt spend hours and hours and years and years of reading academic sources and writing research papers for graduate classes and lecturing to undergrads on almost every aspect of WWII (from the individual infantry weapons used, to squad tactics, to campaigns, to world politics, and even our very own aircraft in AH2).  I dont have over 3 dozen testimonies from interviews conducted by me of WWII vets from 6 different countries (US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, and Egypt).  I have no idea what I am speaking about.  I guess I need to read up on some more Time-Life picture books.  Am I an expert? Nah, I'll stop short of saying so. 

...well...based on what you write, I guess I believe this....

- oldman

[SmokinLoon]

             Hitler had his "Mr.Nice guy" moments too. Watch the footage where he's out with Eva
             and the kids. Anyone need a reference book?...anyone?........hello?(cricket chirps)

Here is one on that subject:

pages 11-19 in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer, last edited in 1990, and published by Simon and Schuster.  In those pages it spells out in sketchy details the highs and lows of Hitler's relations with other people, namely family and friends.  He had his moments it sounds like.  Certainly not the best source, but one I had close at hand.   

Oh great... perhaps I shouldnt have done that.  Now I'll be called a Hitler lover, too.        

[saantana]

... Oh great... perhaps I shouldnt have done that.  Now I'll be called a Hitler lover, too.        

Apologist would be the better.

[yanksfan]

*sigh* 

Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that committed far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them.  Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research.  Both of those make the SS look like child's play.

If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well.  Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted.  Friggin whiners. 

Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield.  The lot of them were awesome.  They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units.  Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished.  Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.

This thread started by asking is "waffen ss" ok to use as an AH squad name, The answer is "NO" it's not ok, period.

Soviet, Chinese units were not in the question, but ok, name those units we should keep an eye out for ,if someone trys to sneek the names in we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.

These were not professional soldiers, they were killers ,trained to kill, yes, soldiers, NO! You say look at what they accomplished, mass murder is what they accomplished, the fact that others were guilty of the same or even worse is no excuse for the crimes these killers committed.

The war the NAZI's took into the soviet union was a war of "EXTERMINATION" the idea was that Germany needed territory to expand, "EMPTY territory" The "ss" Waffen or otherwise was designed to insure the war of extermination was carried out without question. Regular army troops were not trusted to follow these orders to the letter. That's why the ss had a separate chain of command all the way and directly back to Hitler.

You say you are not defending their crimes, you can't defend any part of them, and you can't overlook or justify their actions by saying that's not the worst of what happend during the time period.

By defending them you are infact part of the problem with how some would have the ss remembered as a bunch of regular army troops caught up in something larger then themselves and therefor are innocent,  NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! 

 "I was only following orders" is unacceptable.

Stop propagating the myth that these were innocent troops following orders!  It's an outright lie!

 And if your going to defend them don't put a disclaimer in there. If your in for a penny your in for a pound!

Nazi's and their idea's should be stomped out when ever they raise their ignorant heads.

Don

[RTHolmes]

thought this might be appropriate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QSLuHVD1M0

[Estes]

I found this appropiate. http://80thfsheadhunters.com/Files/Stephen%20Lynch%20-%20The%20Craig%20Machine%20-%20Little%20Tiny%20Moustache%20-%2009.wma
Not safe for work.

[Rich46yo]

You are blathering nonsense and show a complete ignorance of actual history.

If you think the Waffen SS combat units were not "professional soldiers" then you shouldnt even be talking to the grownups here.

This thread started by asking is "waffen ss" ok to use as an AH squad name, The answer is "NO" it's not ok, period.

Soviet, Chinese units were not in the question, but ok, name those units we should keep an eye out for ,if someone trys to sneek the names in we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.

These were not professional soldiers, they were killers ,trained to kill, yes, soldiers, NO! You say look at what they accomplished, mass murder is what they accomplished, the fact that others were guilty of the same or even worse is no excuse for the crimes these killers committed.

The war the NAZI's took into the soviet union was a war of "EXTERMINATION" the idea was that Germany needed territory to expand, "EMPTY territory" The "ss" Waffen or otherwise was designed to insure the war of extermination was carried out without question. Regular army troops were not trusted to follow these orders to the letter. That's why the ss had a separate chain of command all the way and directly back to Hitler.

You say you are not defending their crimes, you can't defend any part of them, and you can't overlook or justify their actions by saying that's not the worst of what happend during the time period.

By defending them you are infact part of the problem with how some would have the ss remembered as a bunch of regular army troops caught up in something larger then themselves and therefor are innocent,  NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! 

 "I was only following orders" is unacceptable.

Stop propagating the myth that these were innocent troops following orders!  It's an outright lie!

 And if your going to defend them don't put a disclaimer in there. If your in for a penny your in for a pound!

Nazi's and their idea's should be stomped out when ever they raise their ignorant heads.

Don

[Squire]

Unfortunately, this is how many view them (with apologies to fans of the show):

<Cue Dukes Of Hazzard Tune>

Just good old Waffen-SS, never meanin' no harm...
Beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was formed.
Straightenin' the front, flattenin' the slavs...
Someday the Allies might get 'em but the Nuremberg prosecutors never will.
Makin' their way, the only way they know how...
That's just a little bit more than international law will allow.
Just good ol' Waffen-SS, wouldn't change if they could,
Fightin' the sub-human bolshevik jews like modern-day Robin Hoods...

[yanksfan]

You are blathering nonsense and show a complete ignorance of actual history.

If you think the Waffen SS combat units were not "professional soldiers" then you shouldnt even be talking to the grownups here.

Soldiers, real soldiers, have a sense of duty, HONOR, and country. Soldiers do not go to battle with the full intent of making war on civilians, in this thread A few people have refferd to the ss as "Soldiers" they were not!

They were killers with no moral compass, calling them soldiers is an insult to every person who has ever been a soldier. I do not doubt there skill in combat, they were well trained and for a time well equipped. This does not make them soldiers. The term soldier is reserved for those with honor, the ss had none and anyone coming to their defence is a fool.

I would never give such a brutal lawless low class band of thug killers such an honorable designation.

Maybe you would have had to have served your country in uniform to know what I am talking about, in any case if you did serve you missed something and I really don't care what you think anyway. I can't imagine what runs thru your mind to come to the defence of such a brutal racist organization as the ss.

And if you still don't get it, maybe you should ask some of the grown ups to explain it to you.

Now run along richie

PS: I refer you to Estes post above, very insightful