John Glenn said this....

[Elfie]

Lincoln = the guy who ended slavery in the USA
FDR = the guy who used public initiative to end the great depression

Awful guys...awful....

Except....the Great Depression didn't really end until America's economy went on a war footing.

[Elfie]

Does Vietnam currently supply any of these things, rubber, oil and tin, to the global marketplace in any reasonable quantity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Economy

Manufacturing, information technology and high-tech industries form a large and fast-growing part of the national economy. Vietnam is a relative new-comer to the oil business, but today it is the third-largest oil producer in Southeast Asia with output of 400,000 barrels per day (64,000 m³/d). Vietnam is one of Asia's most open economies: two-way trade is around 160% of GDP, more than twice the ratio for China and over four times India's.[10]

Vietnam is still a relatively poor country with an annual GDP of US$280.2 billion at purchasing power parity (2006 estimate)[11]. This translates to a purchasing power of about US$3,300 per capita (or US$726 per capita at the market exchange rate). Inflation rate was estimated at 7.5% per year in 2006. Deep poverty, defined as a percent of the population living under $1 per day, has declined significantly and is now smaller than that of China, India, and the Philippines. [12]

As a result of several land reform measures, Vietnam is now the largest producer of cashew nuts with a one-third global share and second largest rice exporter in the world after Thailand. Vietnam has the highest percent of land use for permanent crops, 6.93%, of any nation in the Greater Mekong Subregion. Besides rice, key exports are coffee, tea, rubber, and fishery products. However, agriculture's share of economic output has declined, falling as a share of GDP from 42% in 1989 to 20% in 2006, as production in other sectors of the economy has risen. According to the CIA World Fact Book, the unemployment rate in Vietnam is 5.4% for 2007. Among other steps taken in the process of transitioning to a market economy, Vietnam in July 2006 updated its intellectual property legislation to comply with TRIPS. Vietnam was accepted into the WTO on November 7, 2006. Vietnam's chief trading partners include Japan, Australia, ASEAN countries, the U.S. and Western European countries.

[AKIron]

Then you should also take a look at history. Hitler declared war on the US as was sinking US ships long before the US attacked Germany. In fact it's that sole reason I'd be willing to be that made Germany the immediate target because they were affecting our trade lanes.

We were supporting those they were at war with. Our ships were legitimate targets.

[FrodeMk3]

Lincoln bumbled his way through the civil war, and eventually ended slavery after violating practically all the principles that Americans hold dear.

FDR bumbled his way through the depression, enacting totalitarian plans that repeatedly made the depression worse in the process holding off economic success.  The ONLY reason we came out of the depression was that he was lucky enough that America got attacked.  It would have not ended for years to come.



As for his conquests?  The answer is really simple.  Look up what Hitler and Mussolini did.  When you see that FDR acted exactly the same as the two "Most evil people" from that time period, the only conclusion you can come to is that FDR was also one of the most evil people from that time period.

So, we had massive purges of non-Fascists, used poison gas in Ethiopia, and herded Jews' into the ovens' right here in the U.S.? 

[FrodeMk3]

the patriot act is not an executive order.  You know this, right?

The patriot act is the will of the people created through a representative congress, signed into law by the duly elected president, and judged by the judiciary for right and wrong.  Might as well see it for what it truly is, I guess.

Yeager, that's true; The Patriot act went through the normal channels' of gov't. However, I myself would not term it the 'will of the people.'

[lasersailor184]

So, we had massive purges of non-Fascists, used poison gas in Ethiopia, and herded Jews' into the ovens' right here in the U.S.? 

We created hundreds of extra bureaus just for all our fascist friends to rule parts of the government, we shot at and killed beggars in D.C., and imprisoned Japanese people for no good reason.

It's pretty damn close.

[FrodeMk3]

We created hundreds of extra bureaus just for all our fascist friends to rule parts of the government, we shot at and killed beggars in D.C., and imprisoned Japanese people for no good reason.

It's pretty damn close.

You do know that F.D.R. had a golden oppurtunity to turn his back on capitalism, by nationalizing our industry during the great depression though?  I would think that if he truly was a fascist, or a communist, he would have followed Stalins' example.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and mention that if some of the programs' and agencies' that F.D.R. put in place during his term had been there in Hoover or Coolidge's, The Great Depression probably wouldn't have been so bad on the U.S. They wouldn't have prevented the Great Depression ( The cost of World War one was finally taking it's toll) But it would have been a lot less worse on us, IMHO.

As for shooting and killing beggars' in D.C., Are you referring to the Bonus march of 1932?

...As for the Nissei, One could call it a knee-jerk bad move, however, it did have two benefits; One, it did make it harder for a Japanese sabotuer or Fifth columnist to operate in the U.S. And two, Even though the Nissei had to live in much harsher conditions' than what they had in the general public, It was easier to protect them from anti-japanese sentiment. So...Bad as it was, It had it's plusses.

[lasersailor184]

You do know that F.D.R. had a golden oppurtunity to turn his back on capitalism, by nationalizing our industry during the great depression though?  I would think that if he truly was a fascist, or a communist, he would have followed Stalins' example.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and mention that if some of the programs' and agencies' that F.D.R. put in place during his term had been there in Hoover or Coolidge's, The Great Depression probably wouldn't have been so bad on the U.S. They wouldn't have prevented the Great Depression ( The cost of World War one was finally taking it's toll) But it would have been a lot less worse on us, IMHO.

As for shooting and killing beggars' in D.C., Are you referring to the Bonus march of 1932?

...As for the Nissei, One could call it a knee-jerk bad move, however, it did have two benefits; One, it did make it harder for a Japanese sabotuer or Fifth columnist to operate in the U.S. And two, Even though the Nissei had to live in much harsher conditions' than what they had in the general public, It was easier to protect them from anti-japanese sentiment. So...Bad as it was, It had it's plusses.

[sarcasm]You know, you're right.  As bad as the Final Solution was, it had it's plusses.  No longer did the Germans have to deal with Shady jew businessmen.  Nor did they have to deal with the staunch capitalist base natural to the jewish community.  They could live on how germans wanted to, without fear diminishing support for the Fatherland.[/sarcasm]

And to see the NIRA, and not tell that this was about as anti-capitalist as possible is just plain foolish.

It's equally as foolish to think that FDR's programs enacted by Hoover would have been beneficial.  What was a particularly heavy economic swing due to stupid trading became an out and out famine due to what FDR did.  Like I said before, the only thing that saved this country from becoming a third world country was the fact that a war started. 

Had Hoover (another one of the worst presidents of all time) enacted these roadkill laws, the country might have failed right then and there.


We are Golly-geen lucky that FDR and Hoover couldn't get their hands on more power, and that they ultimately failed.

[FrodeMk3]

As for shooting and killing beggars' in D.C., Are you referring to the Bonus march of 1932?

[Saxman]

Y'know the Canadians treated Japanese citizens/residents far worse than the US did....

It's also a bit unfair to solo out FDR on the internment thing as there was a LOT of popular resentment of the Japanese nation-wide. I remember seeing photos of a barber shop in the midwest during the war with the sign: "Japs shaved, not responsible for accidents." And though it's not as well-known there WAS negative response and treatment--both civil and government--to people of German ancestry as well.

Don't let hindsight blind you laser. Everything looks so obvious now, but I'd like to see how much better YOU'D handle things in that situation with no forewarning of how it all would end up working out.

[Angus]

Looking at 20th century history, the Great depression, starting in Wall streat and spreading through the world (Although bouncing off the USSR ), caused famine world wide. It was before FDR entered office. And then, the big droughts of the mid 30's were of such nature that no precident would stop those...

[Mojava]

.

[Saxman]

Angus,

I'm sure laser will come back with how FDR waved his hands and intentionally changed earth's weather patterns to create the Dust Bow as part of his grand and evil scheme to further his Socialist agenda. 

[Angus]

The Great depression had it's roots some many years back. The only Democrat President from 1891 to Roosevelt was Wilson if I have things right...

[lasersailor184]

As for shooting and killing beggars' in D.C., Are you referring to the Bonus march of 1932?

I was.  I thought it happened later then that.


Don't forget that in Germany, there was a lot of popular resentment against the Jews.  Yet you are telling us what Germany did to the jews was awful, but what we did to the Japs was completely righteous?  Also as a side note, Germany was quicker in repaying the jews, then we were in repaying the japanese.


I have said often here that FDR idealized Hitler and Mussolini.  The problem is that Hitler and Mussolini idealized Woodrow Wilson.  Read up on Woodrow Wilson sometime.  He was a whackjob that made some of the worst despots of history look sane.

Coming up from the bottom of the worst US presidents of all time, it goes FDR, Wilson, and then Lincoln.  Lincoln is only just ranked higher than Wilson because he freed the slaves.


The stock market crash was going to happen.  And obviously Bush caused global warming which made the Dust Bowl.  You can't change that this was going to happen.  However FDR's policies rammed a recovery into the ground, where as someone should have just let it recover on its own.

Hindsight is 20/20.  But given how crappy of a job FDR did, it's very easy to think that any non-fascist would have done a much better job, including me.