Perk

[waystin2]

because the guys with most perks are of course the better pilots so now you have the best pilots flying the best planes

Interesting point, and one that I had similiar thoughts on Box.  Balancing/unbalancing? I'm not sure, but definitely some truth involved.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm not the one who compared it to a rocket.  I stated that it factually is not comparable to a rocket.

You lose.

   I'm pretty sure he was making an analogy.  Besides, the 163 is pretty pathetic compared to a Saturn rocket.

[Bosco123]

It doesn't come close to matching the climb of the Me163.  It cannot turn with any A6M or any Hurricane.  Its flat out top speed on the deck is about 345mph, fast but by no means staggering. You're afraid of it because you've made it a bogeyman in your mind and are losing fights with it before the first maneuver.

WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.

[Anaxogoras]

WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.

Technically speaking, a classic straw-man fallacy:

[Karnak]

WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.

You blow its capabilities way out of proportion.  If it were as good as you claim it would dominate, which it does not.

The F4U-1C was getting 15-20% of the kills in a given tour when it was unperked and maintaining a very high K/D ratio despite being flown enmasse by unskilled players.  The Spitfire Mk XVI gets 6-7% and has a middling K/D ratio.

[uberslet]

I have my doubts about that, but I suppose I could just be deceived because of the inexperience of most Spit16 sticks...

At any rate...  Let's consider something here...  Let's assume we all like this game, and want it to continue.  If we want that to happen, we need to have a constant influx of new players that remain in the game.  To have that happen, we need to give the new players some sort of chance, so they don't get incredibly frustrated and quit.  The Spit16 fits that bill nicely. 

I don't understand the whole "perk it because new guys can do ok in it" argument.  Give them a chance, already...  They aren't hard to kill.

Fix? what i feel anyways, if your rank is lower than say 1000 have a perk on the spit 16. >1001 and no perk. how easy itd be im not sure, but its a thought, and if posible I feel it could be a potential fix.

[Karnak]

Fix? what i feel anyways, if your rank is lower than say 1000 have a perk on the spit 16. >1001 and no perk. how easy itd be im not sure, but its a thought, and if posible I feel it could be a potential fix.

Why?  Nobody has yet given a single good reason to perk it.

It wasn't rare.
It isn't dominating.
It isn't being used excessively.

What possible justification is there to perk it?

[Boxboy]

Why?  Nobody has yet given a single good reason to perk it.

It wasn't rare.
It isn't dominating.
It isn't being used excessively.

What possible justification is there to perk it?

Good question, why perk anything when the Chog was ruling the air we didn't half the plane set we have now.

[Oleg]

Think of this, you are flying something fast, lets say F4U1-D (my favorite) you all know it can out turn it, but you have the alt. A spixteen ups and as soon as it takes off it climbs up to you; its now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds. You cain't rope him, or your dead; and if your not a decent pilot, you cain't even come close to killing it.

First of all, Spit16 can climb less than 2500 feet in 30 sec, so your claim "now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds" isnt true at all unless you dont have alt actually. Second, Corsair can bite Spit16 in turnfight or rope it (unlike you said above), and climbing 16 is free easy kill, nothing more.

Basically, you exaggerating every Spit16's ability in great scale and use it as base for "perk it" request.

Spit16 is best fighter for noobs because it encourage them to fight, not just pick & run like La7 or P-51D for example, and give them some chances agains more experienced pilots. It shouldnt be perked just because somebody cannt deal with it.

[Vudak]

Well, I said it earlier but I'll say it again...  The Spit16 gives newer & less experienced/skilled players a decent chance of getting to shoot a guy down and share in the fun...  While at the same time not unbalancing a thing.

You ever run across someone that just doesn't have the slightest clue, and then check out their stats?  Some of these guys get a kill every 10-15 sorties at best.  Give them a chance already.

If anyone is having a problem dealing with Spit16's, there's a pretty simple solution, anyway.  Go into the DA with a good stick, take your favorite plane and ask him to fly a 16.  Fight him over and over again, trying everything you can think of.  Have more E, less, equal, merge this way, merge that.  Go at it every night for a few weeks.  MA problem solved.

[trigger2]

Well, I said it earlier but I'll say it again...  The Spit16 gives newer & less experienced/skilled players a decent chance of getting to shoot a guy down and share in the fun...  While at the same time not unbalancing a thing.

You ever run across someone that just doesn't have the slightest clue, and then check out their stats?  Some of these guys get a kill every 10-15 sorties at best.  Give them a chance already.

If anyone is having a problem dealing with Spit16's, there's a pretty simple solution, anyway.  Go into the DA with a good stick, take your favorite plane and ask him to fly a 16.  Fight him over and over again, trying everything you can think of.  Have more E, less, equal, merge this way, merge that.  Go at it every night for a few weeks.  MA problem solved.

Nah, I have no problems with a spitty in my corsair.

I can outturn it with 75% flaps (slow of course, with gear down) and, well, I've found that corsairs work better than spitties above 400 mph so a dive takes care of the spitfire on your 6 pretty well.

I'll jump into a spixteen every-now-and-then when I'm feeling a little dweebish, and I usually don't come home with less than 4 kills... but that's the thing, it's an easy bird...

I get what you're saying about the new guys, the problem is, it teaches them how to fight with an advantage, I'd be more than willing to take some people out into the TA in corsairs, or p38's or hey, even p40's, and I've done it a few times, the last was 2 days ago, guy in the DA was saying how he was 'no good' so I offered to take him into the TA and show him some of the ropes, BCM's, some tips on SA, gunnery, stuff like that, and when he jumped back in, not only was he more confident, he was flying and getting some kills...

But that's the problem... not many sticks these days want to admit they have something they need to work on, not many of us want to accept aid because they feel they will be 'looked down on' or they're 'doing just fine'... but take "zerofire" (Yes, I'm talking about his shade...er...new account) all he does is get up to 12-13k in a tempest and BnZ, and thinks he's good... whereas I'm sure if as a new guy, someone woulda gone 'here's what we think is acceptible in these situations, here's some of the basics, some tips, and maybe even some advanced combat manuvers' I'm sure we'd be seeing a different guy...

So... in short, the spit 16 can also be hindering our future generation of sticks... as if they aren't hindered enough now... 

I'm an old h2h guy where 99% of the time, the spitfires would be disabled in the arenas, and you'd be flyin 109's, or p38's, and if you got lucky, a p51...

And imo, h2h gameplay was alot better, there was more respect, more teaching, more of the "hey, here's what you did wrong, and if you'd like, I'll work with you on it" and the reply was usually either, "Thank you sir, what field should we meet at" or "No thanks, I know what I did wrong..." not the standard ch 200 reply which I won't post here 

That's my $.02

[BnZ]

The thing about the Spixteen is not its turning ability, nor its E-retention/building ability. It is the combination of the two. This is what makes it so frustrating for much-worse turning fighters trying to apply E tactics against it. It can seemingly pull Gs in turning evasives with little concern for energy and still turn the table on the E states very quickly. And the roll rate makes it insane for jinking and jiving.

Of course, for aircraft with similar or greater turning ability, the Spixteen can often be a remarkably easy kill, because of bad angles tactics used by noobs and failure to fly the Spixteen as an energy fighter, despite its capacity in that role.

This may be the divide between those who think it needs to be perked and doesn't. If it went ~355mph instead of ~344 on the deck, I'd definitely be in the perking camp. If we had a clipped-wing SpitIX instead of the XVI, I'd be in the definitely don't perk it camp. As it is, I'm on the fence.

[RTHolmes]

Personally I think AH has them too fragile to enemy fire.  I've never heard that Spit wings were particularly fragile to enemy fire.

very strong, light wing design (evidenced by their condition after hard crash landings) so you've got to be really brutal to rip the wings off it. however, it doesn't have a tonne of girders inside it to support 2000lb+ of ords (or indeed 16,000lb of ac), so will be more vulnerable to fire than eg. a jug wing.


edit: if you've seen lw guncam, you'll know that spit wings dont last that long under fire

[Anaxogoras]

So... in short, the spit 16 can also be hindering our future generation of sticks... as if they aren't hindered enough now... 

There's another one who gets it.  Because the Spit16 makes up for bad acm, it doesn't encourage learning it.  There's lots of aircraft that are good for beginners but which still reveal enough mistakes to motivate growth.  Here are the ones I can name off hand:

Spitfire VIII or IX
109F-4 or G-2
P-38L (no torque)
LA-5
KI-84 (great performance but gives lots of 'feedback' if you try to manhandle the controls.)

Leaving noobs with the Spitfire VIII is hardly going to deny them fun or kills.  However, it is a little slower than the 16, its acceleration is a little behind and it doesn't roll like a 190 (almost forgot the 4x303s instead of 2x50cals).  Maybe that's just enough to still encourage the learning of acm but with minimum penalty for new folks.

Give the 16 a small perk and unperk the 14.   The Spit14 was never a problem in warbirds, and I used to love it when 14 pilots would try to turn fight me in the 109G-6.

[SlapShot]

it out turns zekes, and with skill, hurris just as easy. it has one of the best accelerations in the game.

You are now "embellishing" to try and make a weak point stronger.

There is no way that a Spit 16 will out turn an A6M5 or an A6M2, nor a Hurricane ... in a pure turn fight.

I love it when I am in an FM2 and a Spit 16 "thinks" that they have an easy kill on the end of the line and decides to "turn" with me. Much to their surprise ... the fight doesn't last very long before they are back in the tower, and the FM2 has no chance against a Zeke in a pure turn fight.