Author Topic: Shermans!  (Read 2643 times)

Offline kvuo75

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2008, 09:37:44 PM »
i dont know what to make of the firefly vs tiger deal now...


earlier today, was exchanging rounds with an m4, i'm in tiger.. at about 2000 yds, I bounced 2 directly off his turret (they actually richochet back my direction), but suprisingly, he bounced like 4 or 5 off me!  and then somehow i finally got a good hit and he dies...     :rolleyes:


the next m4 a minute later at about 1600 turreted me in 1 shot tho   :D


« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 09:42:13 PM by kvuo75 »
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Offline sethipus

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2008, 10:35:46 PM »
Bah!! ....my Tiger dies w/ one shot from a Panzer IV ....so I dont even bother w/ Tigers anymore.
Helm ...out
Tigers die with one shot from Panzers at short range.  At longer ranges, like 1000-1600 yards and further, one-shot kills against Tigers with the Panzer would be the exception, not the rule.

It's not the Panzer's improved effectiveness against the Tiger that has led to the decline of the Tiger.  It's the Sherman Firefly that did it.

I can one-shot kill a Tiger in a T34.  I just have to get like 50-100 yards away from it and shoot it directly into the side armor.  That doesn't mean the Tiger sucks against T34s.  The Tiger still dominates Panzers, especially if you can keep the Panzers from getting inside 800 yards or so.

Remember when it was almost impossible to kill Tigers with the Panzer, no matter how close you were, and there was no Sherman?  Now that was silly stupid.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 10:39:09 PM by sethipus »

Offline wipass

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2008, 03:25:13 AM »
Interesting pictures here,

http://www.zhe.hu/Barangolas/Hollandia/Overloon%20Muzeum/overloon%20muzeum1.html

http://www.pbase.com/kees_s/overloon

This is a Sherman at the Overloon War Museum in Holland. I was there a few years back, what the pictures don't show is that this Sherman took 3 hits from an 88mm at around 1000 yards.

The turret was moved out of place by a round that wedged between the turret and the body, there were also 2 further hits that entered from the lower side (between the tracks) and also exited out of the opposite side.

Doesn't prove anything either way, just interesting photos.

wipass

Offline Charge

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2008, 08:32:23 AM »
Excerpt from: http://yarchive.net/mil/ww2_tank_armor.html

"Certainly the US had the expertise and facilities to produce
cast AFV hulls and turrets. As another poster detailed, most of the
many M4s we produced had cast turrets, and a majority had cast
hulls. Castings, though, have certain inherent disadvantages. No
matter how metallurgically sophisticated a nation is, the physics
dictates that grain orientation cannot be controlled, and grain growth
is mostly uncontrollable, in large castings.  Thus even the most
elegant tool steel alloys are not particularly strong as raw castings,
without work hardening to make a fine grain structure. Casting's main
advantages, once the tooling is built, are production rate and lower
(not higher!) technological requirements."

http://www.tqnyc.org/NYC073871/Comparisons_of_tanks.htm

This site pretty much shows the weight/armour difference between Pz4 and T-34(and M4 if you like). T34 is 10 tons heavier and has actually a bit worse armour in terms of resisting penetration although commonly considered superior to Pz4. Pz4 does not have as effective sloping, though, which probably would make a difference in close quarters fight. In longer ranges the sloping starts to lose its effectiveness since the hits start to have more angle but it still is the most optimal layout.

Face hardened plate has a better chance of deflecting the AP penetrator away or making it shatter on impact where as the softer cast armour lets the penetrator bite into the surface and start delivering its energy to armour. Rounding of the corners is certainly a good feature (although softness of metal eats some of that away)as are the lack of welds in the corners in cast armour and of course it is fast and cheap to produce.

Some more info: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm#panzer4

I tend to agree that M4 was still just an M4 although now it had a decent gun and it could defend itself also in head-on engagements.

It is up to you to consider if M4's armour (and T-34's) are a bit "overdone"...  ;)

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Offline sethipus

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2008, 02:05:47 PM »
I'd like some feedback from the armor/weapon gurus.  This isn't a whine, I'm just posing a question regarding weapon penetration, armor thickness, etc. for a given scenario.

Last night a Bish came out with an M4 and I was in a T34.  I got a side turret hit on him with an HVAP round at around 30 yards range and I got the hit sprite and then nothing happened.  Didn't pop the turret, kill him, or anything else.  He turned and killed me.  This happened two more times, with me getting extreme close-range hits on the side or front quarter (not directly into gun mantlet) of his Sherman turret using HVAP rounds from my T34/76 gun, and nothing happening.

Do you guys think this is reasonable?  Does anything think perhaps this Sherman turret is a bit overmodeled?  Or is it just bad luck my three HVAP rounds from point-blank range were absorbed by this turret?

Ironically, if I'd fired at his side armor he'd probably have died, but he took those turret hits like a man and killed me each time.

Offline humble

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2008, 02:15:14 PM »
I'd like some feedback from the armor/weapon gurus.  This isn't a whine, I'm just posing a question regarding weapon penetration, armor thickness, etc. for a given scenario.

Last night a Bish came out with an M4 and I was in a T34.  I got a side turret hit on him with an HVAP round at around 30 yards range and I got the hit sprite and then nothing happened.  Didn't pop the turret, kill him, or anything else.  He turned and killed me.  This happened two more times, with me getting extreme close-range hits on the side or front quarter (not directly into gun mantlet) of his Sherman turret using HVAP rounds from my T34/76 gun, and nothing happening.

Do you guys think this is reasonable?  Does anything think perhaps this Sherman turret is a bit overmodeled?  Or is it just bad luck my three HVAP rounds from point-blank range were absorbed by this turret?

Ironically, if I'd fired at his side armor he'd probably have died, but he took those turret hits like a man and killed me each time.

I dont recall if HVAP is better at short ranges or longer ranges. It's less effective then a normal AP round under certain circumstances. No question the damage modeling for AFV's is not right. Overall however the sherman was not "under armored" it was under gunned compared to the PzIV. Shooting a sherman in the turret is the worst thing you can do, its turret is much more survivable then its hull side facing. At point blank range this is poor judgement on your part....also realize that not only is the turret rounded, but you were actually shooting up from close range to hit it adding deflection/slope and allowing the round to deflect up.

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Offline MajIssue

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2008, 02:28:10 PM »
The poster seems to confuse the Panzer IV with a Tiger.

Panzer IV's weren't that kind of uber-tanks guarranteed to kill a Sherman, especially not at longer rangers.  Neither were  Sherman as weakly armored as a common myth seems to indicate...
I hate to disagree Lusche, but there was an episode of Enginering Disasters on the History Channel about the Sherman. One unit lost 12 out of 14 crews within a day due to the thin armor, gasoline powerplant and small bore main gun. The Army had decided that speed was the primary attribute for the Army's new MBT and chose the sherman for it's speed rather than for firepower and survivability. The M4 was no match for a Tiger. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the change made on the VC firefly that made it such an "uber" tank when compared to the Pzkw IV (as we have it modeled in AH).
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Offline sethipus

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2008, 02:42:33 PM »
I dont recall if HVAP is better at short ranges or longer ranges. It's less effective then a normal AP round under certain circumstances. No question the damage modeling for AFV's is not right. Overall however the sherman was not "under armored" it was under gunned compared to the PzIV. Shooting a sherman in the turret is the worst thing you can do, its turret is much more survivable then its hull side facing. At point blank range this is poor judgement on your part....also realize that not only is the turret rounded, but you were actually shooting up from close range to hit it adding deflection/slope and allowing the round to deflect up.
Actually I had little choice regarding shooting his turret.  These shots involved a Sherman passing by and becoming visible over a low hill, and his turret showed up first and getting a hull shot would have been difficult or impossible, or given him a chance to get the first shot at me.  Granted, when I hit the side of his turret I could have waited a few seconds since he had to turn his turret to shoot me, and that would have given his hull a chance to expose itself as he passed the end of that little terrain.  I chose to shoot under the (possibly mistaken) assumption that a side turret hit would be easier to penetrate than a front turret hit if he stop and started turning his turret toward me.

Offline E25280

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2008, 07:37:33 PM »
I dont recall if HVAP is better at short ranges or longer ranges.
Shorter ranges.  It sacrifices weight for muzzle velocity, so although faster and better penetrating at short ranges, it decelerates more quickly than a heavier AP round.

That being said, the HVAP round in my experience does not seem to have much additional punch vs. standard AP in AH.  Could easily be just my perception.  YMMV.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2008, 08:02:33 PM »
I hate to disagree Lusche, but there was an episode of Enginering Disasters on the History Channel about the Sherman. One unit lost 12 out of 14 crews within a day due to the thin armor, gasoline powerplant and small bore main gun. The Army had decided that speed was the primary attribute for the Army's new MBT and chose the sherman for it's speed rather than for firepower and survivability. The M4 was no match for a Tiger. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the change made on the VC firefly that made it such an "uber" tank when compared to the Pzkw IV (as we have it modeled in AH).
Your first problem is that you are relying on the History Channel, which dutifully repeats popular myth rather than dig for the truth in many if not most cases.

Lost 12 of 14 crews?  Plenty of tanks did that at some point or another. 

Lose them to machine gun fire, you have an argument.  Lose them against emplaced 88s?  Tigers?  Panthers?  Insufficient data, therefore a statistic without a point.

Thin armor?  Compared to what?  Certainly thinner than the Tiger (a heavy tank vs. the medium Sherman), but not as paper thin as popular myth would have you believe.

Gasoline power plant is a problem?  What do you think the PzkwIV and Tiger ran on?  Why is it gasoline a problem only for the Sherman and not any of the other gasoline-powered tanks?

75mm is "small bore?"   :lol

The Sherman, a tank designed to be an infantry support system, weighing in at 30 tons, was "no match" for the Tiger, a tank designed to be a tank-killer, weiging in at 55 tons.  Well DUH.  Here is a hint for you -- the Sherman was no match for the Tiger, but neither was the Pzkw IV, nor the T-34, yet no one would argue either of those tanks were failures.

What makes the Firefly superior to the Pzkw IV in this game?  The gun, silly!  Isn't it obvious?  The 17lbr gun was one of the most effective AT weapons developed in the war, and it pwns in AH.  As it should.
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Offline theNewB

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2008, 11:33:39 PM »
Firefly 17lber OQF MkIV (believe this is the gun we have in the 5C) Gun data.

APCBC (Armour Piercing Cap Ballistic Cap)

Muzzle Velocity: 2,900 Ft/Sec

Penetraion at 0 deg.

500m: 172mm
1000m: 162mm
1500m: 150mm

Pen. @ 30 deg.
500m: 136mm
1000m: 128mm
1500m: 119mm
2000m: 107mm (so no mantle penetration but everywhere else stands a good chance of full penetration)

so its safe to say at 2500m the 17lber will still penetrate your tigers frontal upper hull armour since it was only 100mm and the turret mantlet was only 110mm @ 0 deg. Either way I believe the firefly we are usuing has APCBC ammo (then again it only says "AP") so if its solid core AP round it will have less penetration then the APCBC. Just be thankful we dont have APDS (@ 1500m it penetrates 213mm @ 0 deg.) cause the tiger will be easily beat out to 3000m (give or take) as for the Firefly VC's Armour it was only 50.8mm @ 46 deg. front upper hull, turret was 76.2mm and mantlet was 88.9mm so the tiger should have no problem penetrating up to 2000m (but NOT the turret mentlet)

88mm KwK 36 L/56(? not sure about 56 sounds right)

Pzgr 39 APCBC (most likely the ammo we use in tiger in game)
Muzzle Velocity: 2,657 Ft/Sec

Penetration at 30 deg.

500m: 108mm
1000m: 100mm
1500m: 94mm (Technically a dead Firefly below this range)
2000m: 83mm (NO chance of a mantlet penetration but rest of turret no problem)

@ 90 deg.

500m: 130mm
1000m: 119mm
1500m: 109mm
2000m: 99mm
2500m: 90mm

so all in all the Firefly VC can penetrate the Tiger I at most normal ranges in the MA and vice versa so on paper they are both a pretty equal match in penetration but NOT in armour. So technically the 1st to shoot will win (in theroie) but we all know that things such as shot placement, packet loss, or just bad luck can effect the IN GAME values of armour. Then again this is a game so dont be suprised if the penetrations are off a bit or a lot. Only reason they were called ronsons were early M4s caught fire without a full penetration hit, all that was required was shell spalling to ignite the cordite or fuel and BOOM shes a flamer, Tiger atleast had a lot of armour against standard M4s so it was less common unless they threw a round from dead 6 into the exhaust (PzIV i can see flaming much easier for obvious reasons), as for the the side skirts of the PzIV they were NOT meant to defeat hollow charge only ATR's to deform or deflect the rifles projectile. Anyway if im wrong about anything im sure someone will correct it but one thing that does bug me is how that myth about the skirts defeating hollow charge. The US and UK just assumed it was for that purpose and didnt think hard enough to figure out the most numerious threat to the panzers in russia were ATRs. They have amazing  penetration values for such a small round (think it was 14.2mm) and if that guy held his ground under cover and let that Pz roll by hes got a good chance at a side/rear shot to disable the tank or kill crew members.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:07:32 AM by theNewB »

Offline Dream Child

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2008, 01:59:08 AM »
Firefly 17lber OQF MkIV (believe this is the gun we have in the 5C) Gun data.

APCBC (Armour Piercing Cap Ballistic Cap)

Muzzle Velocity: 2,900 Ft/Sec

...

Me thinks you about 1,000+ FPS too slow.

Offline theNewB

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2008, 10:41:15 AM »
Not for APCBC. APDS was 3,950 feet per second which we dont have but I could be wrong about our load outs. Since its the morning ill quote wiki here.

Quote
In about September 1944, the British started to use APDS shot for the 17-pdr, which travelling at over 1,200 metres per second increased the armour penetrating power of the 17-pdr greatly with a penetration of 192 mm armour over 1,000 yards (910 m). The disadvantages of APDS as compared with the 17-pdr's regular APCBC ammunition was that it was much less accurate and did not do nearly as much damage to an enemy tank if it did penetrate. APDS shot remained rare accounting for only about 6% of the average loadout of a 17-pdr equipped British tank.


So yes for Armour Piercing Discaring Sabo then Ill agree its around 3000ft/sec but it was a rare commodity so most likely youll see APCBC so the FPS should be right.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 10:49:59 AM by theNewB »

Offline haasehole

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2008, 11:47:54 AM »
   heck of a post thenewB  :salute  saw the same show (issue) it mentioned the aircract motor for the shermans and it higher octain needs=more voilatle nature. I think it good to have tanks that can bust tigers  I'm  :pray  for the comet
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Shermans!
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2008, 12:08:45 PM »
August 8, 1944   Trooper Joe Elkins, gunner on a Sherman Firefly, with 6 shots, kills 4 Tiger Is including the Tiger I of Tiger Ace Michael Wittmann.  The Tigers got off three shots at the Firefly, 2 missing and the third hitting the commander's hatch.  The fight took less then an hour.

The 17 pounder was more then a match for Tiger Is armor.  Elkin's "Brewed" Wittmann's Tiger with one shot
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