AH vs real WW2

[Masherbrum]

Obviously the idea behind this game is to allow us to think we would be a top ace in WW2, however how do you think some of the top sticks here in AH would have done in real aircraft in WW2?

When I say top sticks I don't mean score tards on the front page, I mean the guys that are actually good and know what they are doing. Granted there is no way this game or any game can really recreate the actual flying characteristics of a real fighter but with the thousands of hours some have logged over the years, that would have to help quite a bit.

When you figure most pilots at the end of the war were under trained and lacked experience, especially those on the Axis side. It just makes me wonder how close the skill sets of some of the top sticks here in AH, would compare to real WW2 sticks. This is ofcourse assuming they went through the same training as the WW2 pilots did.

I suck at this game, so I'm not a good person to talk to.

[Stogie]

I believe that if it were possible for the better sticks to fly the real birds I would be making a fortune by investing in air sick bag companies. 

[DREDIOCK]

                   ... Then there are the guys who ARE pilots in this game.

Yes.
But how many of them get shot at by other aircraft for real on a regular basis?

two seperate things.

Here nobody is really worried about dying. Thus they dont have that kind of pressure.
In the game if you get shot down or killed. Oh well just up another plane and hope you do better next time.
In real combat if you get shot down or killed.
Well ,it might just ruin your whole day.

Hard to say how any of our real pilots might react under the same set of circumstances as they faced in WWII unless they really faced it.
Some who may do great in a sim might crack completely when faced with real combat.
While others who dont do so great might be outstanding when faced with that kind of pressure

[Agent360]

This thread is a troll right?

It is ridiculous to compare any level of sim experience in something as gamey as this of all things to real world aviation, especially at a combat level.
I've spent years with 747 sims in FS/Vatsim with real world fixed wing experience and helicopter ratings.

<snip>

<S>...-Gixer

I disagree. Proper comaparisons have been made. I don't think the initial topic was totally out of context with the real world. It was a legitamate and interisting question.

Why is that anytime someone tries to have an intellectual conversation here that everyone has to be a pessimistic retard. Can none of you think out of the box? Are there no "THINKERS" here.

Sometimes the most rediclulous ideas forge real working ones. Why can't we have a discussion about something without the dam "troll" comment.

[Gixer]

I disagree. Proper comaparisons have been made. I don't think the initial topic was totally out of context with the real world. It was a legitamate and interisting question.

Why is that anytime someone tries to have an intellectual conversation here that everyone has to be a pessimistic retard. Can none of you think out of the box? Are there no "THINKERS" here.

Sometimes the most rediclulous ideas forge real working ones. Why can't we have a discussion about something without the dam "troll" comment.

Ok THINK about it for a second yourself. Does playing a F1 game on your PC give you the abilities to then jump into a real F1 car drop the clutch without stalling and complete a lap of Monza? Let alone a race? The sim might give you a basic knowledge of the track layout and car controls. But driving the real thing is leaps and bounds and a world of difference above any sim experience. Same deal for flight sims but to an even higher degree.

Think... It's more Dreaming imho.


<S>...-Gixer

[crockett]

ya and also the "pucker" factor that my father and law likes to talk about.  I think maybe some theory of ACM and general concepts might carry over, but I don't really think your going to have much of an advantage over someone who has never touched this sim before.  It would be a bit like saying that because you play alot of NASCAR on your xbox360, that you would be a good NASCAR driver.  Or if you played alot of WoW, you would make a great fairy paladin, or an elf wizard.

Actually.. the theory does carry over from racing games to real racing. Granted I have never raced raced NASCAR but I have raced on many of the big NASCAR tracks like Charlotte and Daytona, among others like Road Atlanta and many smaller less known tracks. I used to drive lay-down shifter karts (think a go kart that you lay on your back like a bob sled and it has a 250cc engine on it).

I can tell you for a fact that even the old school games back then (late 90's) actually helped me in real racing. In fact I learned how to wash out my front end to keep the rear end from coming un-glued from the arcade game Indy 500 by Sega. (crappy video of the game  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJymi8qUYhA )

In short what I learned in that game was if I found my self with the rear of the car getting lose and about to spin, I could move the steering wheel side to side with quick motions and it would end up loosening the front end allowing the rear end to get a grip again. I used to go to the Arcade and play that game once a week for a half hour to a hour because it was the closest I could get to being on the track and that move ended up becoming second nature to me.

Putting it to use in real life happened just because I learned it on the video game. I was racing at a track called Roebling Road (http://www.roeblingroad.com/) and going around a off camber corner when my rear-end started getting lose and I was about to spin. Instinctively from playing that video game I quickly moved my steering wheel side to side and it did exactly the same thing the game did. The rear end got it's grip back because I temporally loosened up the front end. I likely would have never learned that move with out having done it hundreds of times in the video game.

Another thing that game did (Indy 500) was greatly stepped up my reaction times.  I remember the first time I ever saw that game a dude was playing it who raced rally cars. I was blown away because the game was so fast, I couldn't see how he was reacting so quickly.. When I first tried I was hitting wall left and right. After many quarters and hours of practice I later had people standing behind me watching asking how I was reacting so fast to the turns.

That game was the only racing game I ever played that gave me the actual feel of being on the track. If you have ever driven on a race track at 120 to 150mph+ you get so focused on what you are doing, everything around you seems to slow down. I don't really know how to explain it but it's a totally diffrent feeling being in the car doing those speeds vs watching it. Your brain is working so fast and your reaction times are so fast that you actually feel like your going much slower. That Indy 500 game is the first and only game that ever gave me that same feeling.

Aso there are many NASCAR guys as well as other drivers from other racing types that do use racing game to help with things like reaction timing.

[crockett]

Ok THINK about it for a second yourself. Does playing a F1 game on your PC give you the abilities to then jump into a real F1 car drop the clutch without stalling and complete a lap of Monza? Let alone a race? The sim might give you a basic knowledge of the track layout and car controls. But driving the real thing is leaps and bounds and a world of difference above any sim experience. Same deal for flight sims but to an even higher degree.

Think... It's more Dreaming imho.


<S>...-Gixer

You are trying to be too much of a realist because the idea doesn't fit into your conceived idea of how things work now. Think out side the box for at least 1 min.. First off as Agent said the military does use simulators now, so if they didn't work the US military wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on them.

Basically the idea behind this topic was knowing that the Military didn't have simulators back then, the pilots had to get in the air to learn things and they didn't really get enough training. In short their training came down to, if they lived they learned something, if they didn't well they were dead.

So with that said even though we know AH isn't a realistic flight sim it surely would have helped in training IMHO. If nothing else it would give them basic understanding of ACM and situational awareness and likely even teach gunnery. Is it going to teach them how to fly a real world plane or how to react to getting shot at in real life? No of course not, but to say someone who has put in thousands of hours in a game like this wouldn't have a leg up after real world training is a bit crazy IMHO. Especially considering the lack of real world training most pilots had in WW2.

[Gixer]

So with that said even though we know AH isn't a realistic flight sim it surely would have helped in training IMHO. If nothing else it would give them basic understanding of ACM and situational awareness and likely even teach gunnery. Is it going to teach them how to fly a real world plane or how to react to getting shot at in real life? No of course not, but to say someone who has put in thousands of hours in a game like this wouldn't have a leg up after real world training is a bit crazy IMHO. Especially considering the lack of real world training most pilots had in WW2.

I understand the point exactly, but there is a massive gap between cartoon planes in a PC game and real world aviation. And yes I probably am a realist because I can compare the experience of real flight and real commercial airline full motion simulators to a desktop PC and they are worlds apart.

Basic understanding of ACM from hours in here yes, but not much higher then reading ACM manuals back to front and playing with models.  SA and gunnery? No. Actually being able to fly, no of course not. At least we agree on that one.

This is the same exact argument that comes up over and over again in aviation forums, where some sim guy will claim that if there was a cockpit emergency he could take over and land the plane. Take said sim guy and just stick him in a full motion Level-D simulator and they just sit there like dumb chickens quickly realising that their PC is a little more basic then a real FMC. And that sim experience means little once your in the seat and at the controls they quickly get overloaded with everything that's happening and stop thinking. Even before adding all the procedures and ATC.

I used  PC flightsim simulators prior to and when I was doing my flight training. But only for one reason and that was for practicing circuit procedures and ATC. Nothing else. I quickly dumped the PC for just spending more time in the tower itself which was far more beneficial to my training.



<S>...-Gixer

[Bubbajj]

In RL you got sucked up off the street, in some cases, and thrown into flight training. Sent out to the field and off you went. I can't see why any one of the people that play here wouldn't make excellent fighter pilots. Many of the aces of days gone by were just average schmucks till they hit the sky.

[angelsandair]

Two completly different things.  Flying an airplane under those circumstances cannot be compared to what we do here.  And on top of that, throw in all the factors of g forces and that that was for real.  Know many pilots who can't fly sims and many sim guys who couldn't be pilots.

I think Adonai flies planes for the Marines, last I heard.

[50 Cents]

It would have been alot colder in those cockpits also.....


50 cents

[BnZ]

I can't see why any one of the people that play here wouldn't make excellent fighter pilots. Many of the aces of days gone by were just average schmucks till they hit the sky.

For many of them, age would be a problem. Real ACM, especially with WWII planes is profoundly physical.

In WWII, the single most important attribute for a fighter pilot was probably eyesight, to spot the enemy first. Remember, 80% of kills were scored against guys who were spotted first and never saw the bandit bouncing them. Then there would be aggression and shooting ability...there was a very strong correlation between having a good score in the air and having grown up in a rural setting getting meat with a shotgun. Taught you to understand, deflection, etc.

And the last important attribute was G-forces. No doubt there were many t'n'b fights won in WWII by aircraft that could be considered worse turners, simply because the pilot could stand more G's and get around for a shot before better sustained turning ability became a factor.

[Masherbrum]

It would have been alot colder in those cockpits also.....


50 cents

Not in the Spit Mk. VI, VII, B-29, 109 Gustav's or Ta-152.   

[50 Cents]

thus the reason i fly a spit....warmer lol


50 cents

[Saurdaukar]

that do use racing game to help with things like reaction timing.

Being a track junky, myself, there is some merit to this comparison.  By the same token, however, what the game still can not simulate are the ancillary things.

The noise you hear around turn one that makes you wonder if you have you have a belt slipping, the slip of a clutch youre burning indicates that you need to let it out sooner, the resistance of a syncho that youll have to replace next week, the feel of tire compression, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on.  Those thousands of assessments that your brain is making every second dont need to be made in a game. 

Beyond that, although Ive never driven at Laguna Seca, I imagine going through the corkscrew is a very different experience (read: WHOA, slow down!) IRL than in a game.

With that in mind, sure we have a better understandsing of theoretical ACM than would a green flight recruit, but we dont have the benefit of having been exposed to the ancillary things.

I love 109's.  I think they are beautiful aircraft, and I fly them often in AH - when I can tolerate working an A/C for a tater shot for 20 seconds only to have a Spixteen swoop in and waste him with his entire hizzoka load.

However.  If you put me in the cockpit of a real one, I wouldnt even know how to prime the engine for start, let alone operate flaps, trim, prop pitch and speed, fuel mixture, etc, etc.

Assuming I could even get the thing airborne without killing myself, what then?  All of the sudden the sterile environment of my PC chair has turned into a psycho roller coaster, I just hit my head on the side of the canopy, the guns dont match up with the site which I turned on by accident looking for the cigarette lighter, the ground is real and that split S doesnt look like such a good idea at 1500ft AGL.

Etc, etc, etc.

You could go both ways with the argument, IMO.  Initially, I think that AH stick time would be a disadvantage.  Where as a raw recruit would simply do what he was told - we would have an expectation that would need to be broken, first.

By contrast, if you could get past the huge differences between driving/flying on a PC and driving/flying IRL, youd probably have a leg up, yes.