Author Topic: What counts?  (Read 4361 times)

Offline A8Jaraxl

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2008, 07:58:17 PM »
It's important to establish that there's a not so subtle difference between Situational Awareness and Tactical Awareness. Situational Awareness implies the assimilation of area wide information consisting of multiple bandits, friendlies, their relative E states, projected vectors and likely intentions on an ongoing basis. Then using that information to formulate a dynamic action plan for working the entire engagement.

Tactical Awareness is the diligent scrutiny of a single opponent's moves, behaviors and likely intentions in order to decide the proper counter-maneuvers to deal with him specifically, in hermetic isolation, as efficiently as possible. Tactical Awareness is always required in any engagement, situational awareness is not.


This is such an isolated and generalized use of these 2 terms....

Example of Situational Awareness.....   MY SITUATION, How much ammo do I have, how much fuel, ALT, E, Terrain in reference to my plane, position and relation of the sun to me.
NME (SINGLE CON) SA= Distance, position relative to the SUN, Terrain, in reference to the NME, how much AMMO/Fuel could he have left.

Tactical Awareness is NOT based on a single con, unless their is ONLY a single con. I do not make a tactical move against 1 guy out of 5, I make a tactical move against 5 guys, in hopes to better my position to take out one or more. There is no isolation in SA and TA be it a 1v1 or 1v100.

This is all part of SA.  Funny thing is, I can substitute TA and SA in my above statement, and ANY and EVERY person ever involved in or at least educated in combat will know exactly what i mean. All those things are not just SA or TA, but both......Because they are the same, plain and simple. This is why you are getting "flak" from the others, your using these way to generalized. You over generalized your statement, with fancy words, and redefined words that have been accepted in combat for thousands of years. Earlier I said we should not worry about the words, I was wrong, in order to make you see where you falling short in this, we must first make you understand that they way your using these terms is totally incorrect.

Yes Concepts change over time and questioning. Definition of military terms, not so much.



« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:08:40 PM by A8Jaraxl »

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2008, 08:02:24 PM »

The absolute "Zero" of certain bits of information (yet not all) is no different then saying you have less information to deal with.

No, that is not it at all. It is not just less information in the quantitative sense. That is because it is not the simplistic arithmetical extrapolation of the same information multiplied times the number of individual factors to be considered, which is what you attempted to say in your original post. It is qualitatively completely different information on many levels requiring equally different decisions to be made for very different reasons.

An example would be to say that drawing a circle is art in the same way that a painting complex landscape masterpiece is. Sure, in painting the masterpiece the artist probably drew a circle or two, but did he or could he have composed the entire work by ONLY drawing circles, just many more of them? Not likely, as it's not a simple matter of plurality. He had to do a lot of very different things in completely different ways to construct his artwork than the circle drawer did to draw his circle. Therefore, I could say a circle is a small component of his masterpiece, but I could not say his masterpiece is just a circle multiplied....
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:17:37 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2008, 08:19:56 PM »
An example would be to say that drawing a circle is art in the same way that a painting complex masterpiece is. Sure, in painting the masterpiece the artist probably drew a circle or two, but did he or could he have composed the entire work by ONLY drawing circles, just many more of them? Not likely, it's not a simple matter of plurality. He had to do a lot of very different things in completely different ways to construct his artwork than the circle drawer did. Therefore, I could say a circle is a component of his masterpiece, but I could not say his artwork is just a circle....
If I say "My three year olds artwork is hanging on the refrigerator" everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about.  If I say "I saw some nice artwork when we went to the museum" everyone still has an understanding of what I am describing.  If I instead ignore the context the word was used in and decide I need to hi-jack another word since the two scenario subjects differ from each other..."My three year olds paint is on the refrigerator".  Now people are going to visualize a concept different from what I am really describing.

Offline A8Jaraxl

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2008, 08:56:49 PM »
No, that is not it at all. It is not just less information in the quantitative sense. That is because it is not the simplistic arithmetical extrapolation of the same information multiplied times the number of individual factors to be considered, which is what you attempted to say in your original post. It is qualitatively completely different information on many levels requiring equally different decisions to be made for very different reasons.

An example would be to say that drawing a circle is art in the same way that a painting complex landscape masterpiece is. Sure, in painting the masterpiece the artist probably drew a circle or two, but did he or could he have composed the entire work by ONLY drawing circles, just many more of them? Not likely, as it's not a simple matter of plurality. He had to do a lot of very different things in completely different ways to construct his artwork than the circle drawer did to draw his circle. Therefore, I could say a circle is a small component of his masterpiece, but I could not say his masterpiece is just a circle multiplied....

Your confusing SA and knowledge.

If you represent every bit of information related to you in combat by the letter A, all Cons by an additional number, the math is simple. A+B+C+D=F. Less information (1v1) would look like A+B=C. Zero information (1v1) still looks like A+B=C. There is no difference, other then your over analyzing the information.

Your SA is directly linked to your genetically disposition attention span, which is finite.

You can all 100fold cons to a scene and you will only absorb what your capcity is, nothing more nothing less.

Its knowledge that makes the difference, not SA.

IF you have 2 people with the exact same capability of attention (SA) Yet one can not win 3v1 and the other can. Is it SA that is lacking or Knowledge. The problem SEEMS more compounded to the one lacking the knowledge. Yet not so to the one that has the knowledge.

Each factor, be it a fly on the wall, or an NME fighter ADDS to the equation, it does not multiply it by X power. Its not quantum physics, don't make it into it.


I have served in combat, as many here have, trust us, its not as complicated as your making it out to be, nor is it as generalized as your trying to use it. Over analyzing it will only give you grey hairs.
Its simple addition, I had 1 opponent, now I have 2, these are my choices, make a choice, execute choice, start the Loop all over again.

Perfect Example:

AKDogg was helping me with some ACM one night. A guy upped and came over to Jump Dogg, next thing I knew, it was AkDogg in a 3v1. He killed 2, and sent one home wounded. What was the determining factor here. He was talking to me all the while, so do you think with the addition of more cons, that his SA was stretched, or severely compounded with the addition of 2 cons? No, it wasn't, it required little more SA then it did with 1v1. What the difference was, is Knowledge. To me, who has great SA, but crappy ACM knowledge as far as how to counter maneuvers, 1v3 seems overwhelming odds.
When I jump into a Furball, I can see the guys coming in on me and I choose what course I deem needed, or what I am getting myself into. I am at this point trying to obtain the knowledge that is needed to succeed in that case. MY SA, however.. I saw Death coming before I even dove down to get in the furball before hand.
To Dogg, who has the knowledge, it was simple. This tells me that SA is not compounded but variables are simply added, only the process of decision making in reference to your level of skill is what seems compounded.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 09:20:43 PM by A8Jaraxl »

Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2008, 09:25:19 PM »
Perfect Example:

AKDogg was helping me with some ACM one night. A guy upped and came over to Jump Dogg, next thing I knew, it was AkDogg in a 3v1. He killed 2, and sent one home wounded. What was the determining factor here. He was talking to me all the while, so do you think with the addition of more cons, that his SA was stretched, or severely compounded with the addition of 2 cons? No, it wasn't, it required little more SA then it did with 1v1. What the difference was, is Knowledge. To me, who has great SA, but crappy ACM knowledge as far as how to counter maneuvers, 1v3 seems overwhelming odds.
When I jump into a Furball, I can see the guys coming in on me and I choose what course I deem needed, or what I am getting myself into. I am at this point trying to obtain the knowledge that is needed to succeed in that case. MY SA, however.. I saw Death coming before I even dove down to get in the furball before hand.
To Dogg, who has the knowledge, it was simple. This tells me that SA is not compounded but variables are simply added, only the process of decision making in reference to your level of skill is what seems compounded.
Nice observation  :aok

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2008, 09:33:28 PM »
If I say "My three year olds artwork is hanging on the refrigerator" everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about.  If I say "I saw some nice artwork when we went to the museum" everyone still has an understanding of what I am describing.  If I instead ignore the context the word was used in and decide I need to hi-jack another word since the two scenario subjects differ from each other..."My three year olds paint is on the refrigerator".  Now people are going to visualize a concept different from what I am really describing.

Either you've had too much to drink, or I need one, but that makes no sense whatsoever other than perhaps you're yet again trying to play amateur forum moderator... :huh
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2008, 09:35:04 PM »
Either you've had too much to drink, or I need one, but that makes no sense whatsoever other than perhaps you're yet again trying to play amateur forum moderator... :huh
Good, now you understand how I am seeing some of your posts when you try to redefine terms :D
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 09:38:43 PM by Murdr »

Offline A8Jaraxl

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2008, 09:37:33 PM »
Good, now you understand how I am seeing some of your posts  :D

Funny, I understood exactly what you meant by that post.

Pretty sure most others did as well.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2008, 09:58:40 PM »
Your confusing SA and knowledge.

 

By knowledge I am assuming that you mean your ability to use information to make a good decision. But really, analyzing the situation is passive SA and using that information to make decisions is active SA. They are inseparable as one without the other removes a contextual basis for interpretation rendering passive SA meaningless, so they are really two sides of the same coin. ACM knowledge however, can exist without SA and SA can exist without that knowledge.

I won't mention his name as he would not appreciate it, but I have a friend I've known for 15+ years from AW. He is the single most knowledgeable player that I have ever personally met. He can outfly almost anyone in anything as if by pure instinct, but he has truly horrible SA. I can show him my films to analyze and he can look at them in 3rd person and tell me exactly how I could have negotiated the engagement better. But, in real-time, in first person, he can literally not keep track of more than 2 things at once beyond his own aircraft. So, while he is an incredibly good stick with excellent TA making him a DA genius, he is very unsuccessful in the MA because of an almost complete lack of SA. I have dueled him about 2,000 times over the years and have only beat him about 50 times (usually when he was drunk). I know many people like this, maybe not to that extreme at both ends of the spectrum, but very similar.

I am an example of someone with zero knowledge and talent, but I have tremendous SA. I have no clue how to fly, but I am relatively successful in the MA even when outnumbered in an inferior plane because of superior SA (and a bit of gunnery). I can keep track of 50 things at once without much effort at all. Kind of like in chess I can anticipate the likely action and reaction of people 10 moves ahead. I don't have to be especially knowledgeable or skilled because through awareness driven decision making I can almost always put myself in the right place at the right time with very little if any fancy flying, Thank God.

At its core SA (active and passive) constitutes timing, which is extremely crucial in fast paced air combat. There's many people like that in the MA, most also have some knowledge making them a lot more effective than I am, but a lot don't.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 10:22:39 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2008, 10:03:39 PM »
Funny, I understood exactly what you meant by that post.

Pretty sure most others did as well.

Holy Cow dude! Get off his ankle, you're making me blush!   :P
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 10:12:19 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline A8Jaraxl

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2008, 10:23:01 PM »
Holy Cow dude! Get off his ankle you're making me blush!   :P

Get off who's Ankle, me saying that is no different then someone else saying, Good point man!

With your mastery of the English language, I would think you would have understood what he was saying.

Again, over analyzing it, has caused you to miss the simple things right in front of you.

Active and Passive SA?!!

SA is SA is SA.


SA is what gathers the information for you to make a choice, SA is not the choose you make, after and during your Choice SA never changes, never goes Active or passive, it just simply IS. Yes you can have knowledge without SA, or SA without Knowledge. However, only one of those 2 make a certain situation difficult, and that is the lack of knowledge.

If you buddy is great on 1v1, but sucks in FurBalling, you assume its a lack of SA. Your taking ONE persons abilities to then define a concept, which results in skewed and false conclusions.
His SA doesn't suck, he either 1, chooses not to use it, or 2 at his cap of attention span. This is irrelevant on the situation. It is irrelevant on the differences and uses between SA in a 1v1 and multi con engagements.

Offline SD67

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2008, 10:28:24 PM »
SO... have we actually worked out what really counts?
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2008, 10:41:55 PM »


SA is what gathers the information for you to make a choice, SA is not the choose you make, after and during your Choice SA never changes, never goes Active or passive, it just simply IS.

All decisions are based upon the interpretation of information. Without observational information there can be no reasonable decisions. Conversely, if you have no basis to interpret observations in order to formulate decisions your mind will not continue to retain that useless information. Observations without consequence on your decision making process are just mental noise. Decisions made without the benefit of observations are nonsensical. So, in essence, neither aspect can exist alone, therefore they are actually dynamic and interdependent aspects of the same thing.

Perhaps you are confusing making mental decisions with the actual physical performance of air combat maneuvers, those would be outside the realm of SA and not a component of it. But, certainly superior skill and knowledge of ACM's would serve to compound your effectiveness indirectly garnered by SA.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 10:59:13 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »
SO... have we actually worked out what really counts?
(Image removed from quote.)

We finished that out around page 2...Everything after that is just Socratic debate for its own sake...;)
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Murdr

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Re: What counts?
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2008, 11:41:54 PM »
So, in essence, neither aspect can exist alone, therefore they are actually dynamic and interdependent aspects of the same thing.

That is incorrect according to currnet analysis of human factors in aviation.  The choice is the output of SA, not a component of it.