What counts?

[Zazen13]

Known occurrences:
    * Cambridge, Maryland, 1828
    * Rahway, New Jersey, November 13, 1833
    * Aberdare, Glamorganshire, Wales, 1841
    * Singapore, February 22, 1861 [10]
    * Mountain Ash, Glamorganshire, Wales, February 9, 1859
    * Olneyville, Rhode Island, May 15, 1900
    * Tiller’s Ferry, South Carolina, June 1901 (catfish)
    * Marksville, Louisiana, October 23, 1947
    * Ranchi, India, July 1997
    * Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, August 8, 2000
    * Wiltshire, May 2001
    * Knighton, Powys, Wales, August 18, 2004
    * Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 2004
    * Paravur, Kerala, India May 2006
    * Peerumed, Kerala, India July 2006
    * Thaliparamba, Kerala, India, July 20 2006
    * Paracatu, Minas Gerais, Brazil, February 14, 2007
    * Honduras, Rain of Fishes, (supposedly taking place once or twice a year, every year for more than a century)

Haha, nice try!  

[Zazen13]

Yeah, but that's still 1vs1

Tell that to the bandit trying to saddle you as another is trying to cherrypick you while you try desperately to gain an angle on their buddy for the fatal blow as quickly as possible while avoiding those two at the same time.

[MonsterZer0]

I have a headache.  What counts hmm? What doesn't count is what others believe. 2 me it's whats in it for me. If u are looking for answers here on BBS good luck, U wont find them. Just alot for blah blah blah. Just like 200 take it for what it is - BS.

[Chalenge]

Despite having a very high reading level I am bored silly with this thread.

[Ack-Ack]

It wouldn't matter if I said the sky is blue. These guys would argue it with me until they stroked out and became worm dirt.

AKAK has personal history with me and has hated me since long before AH even existed, I thought he had grown out of that adolescent fuedalism but I guess I was mistaken. Bighorn is apparently a mystery man of many faces and the dueling King of AH. But, he almost never flies the MA, so he always tries to argue that 1 vs 1 duels are the end all be all to fighterdom existence and somehow magically contain within their context every factor the chaotic MA environment encompasses and more...lol

Honestly, this has nothing to do with anything other than you are incorrect about SA.  I think 2bighorn pretty much summerized it best and the point of the argument.  Why you think this is personal, I have no idea nor do I understand why you bring something up that has been long forgotten by me?  It's you that is turning this into some personal argument, no one else. 

I would like to hear what players like eagl and Mace have to say, I think with them being military fighter pilots (or former) they could shed some light on the subject.


ack-ack

[Anaxogoras]

Let me get this straight.  Are you all really having an argument over terminology?  Whether Situational Awareness is broad enough to include dueling or if a new term like Tactical Awareness must be introduced?

As yourself these questions:  What job does the term Situational Awareness have in our air-combat language?  If we add another term like Tactical Awareness are we discovering something new, or limiting the scope of Situational Awareness?

[Yenny]

but that's why I read forum to kill times at work Gava

[Anaxogoras]

I would like to hear what players like eagl and Mace have to say, I think with them being military fighter pilots (or former) they could shed some light on the subject.

A longtime friend of mine is an F-16 pilot and talked of SA in the context of flying circles over Baghdad looking for guys planting IEDs, let alone shooting or bombing something.

[BaldEagl]

It wouldn't matter if I said the sky is blue. These guys would argue it with me until they stroked out and became worm dirt.

Sometimes the sky is white with puffy cumulous clouds.
Sometimes the sky is grey, as on a gloomy day.
Sometimes the sky is red, as at sunrise or sunset.
Sometimes the sky is black, as at night.
Sometimes the sky is green, as before a major storm.

Probably not your best analogy.

[Murdr]

All of those things are considered in complex engagements as well. But, there's also much, much more. Being aware of your plane's behavior is ubiquitous not unique to 1 vs 1's. ---snip---

I don't see anyone disagreeing with you on the point that complex engagments involve "more" SA.  The issue is you recatagorizing established terminology into something other than it is.  Frankly since this is in General Discussion and not H&T, I can just walk away from the discussion satisifed that counter info was posted. 

[Gixer]

I've always found the DA fairly dull other then for squad training. While it's good to face up against someone good from time to time, I usually get bored after two or three sorties. Basically since it's the "unknown" factor of flying in the MA that keeps me interested in the game. Staged fights whether 1v1,1v3 or what ever don't have that.

Plus I can never take the DA seriously, I find that I don't push it as hard as I do in the MA, simply because it's a staged environment plus added gamey aspects reduced damaged etc. Then there are the DA rules.  

As for SA training something else I'd rather practice in the MA and take the hits. Again with the DA stages environment you always know what your coming up against and where they will be. Spending more time in the MA flying at 7,000 feet in a high eny ride is the best SA and defensive training imho.


<S>...-Gixer

[stephen]

AK AK....im A8Popycd, im sure you recount that ive dueld before, and im sure you know where I got the basis for my complaints about the DA....
See your up to the old tricks lol

[Zazen13]

I've always found the DA fairly dull other then for squad training. While it's good to face up against someone good from time to time, I usually get bored after two or three sorties. Basically since it's the "unknown" factor of flying in the MA that keeps me interested in the game. Staged fights whether 1v1,1v3 or what ever don't have that.

Plus I can never take the DA seriously, I find that I don't push it as hard as I do in the MA, simply because it's a staged environment plus added gamey aspects reduced damaged etc. Then there are the DA rules.  

As for SA training something else I'd rather practice in the MA and take the hits. Again with the DA stages environment you always know what your coming up against and where they will be. Spending more time in the MA flying at 7,000 feet in a high eny ride is the best SA and defensive training imho.


<S>...-Gixer

My sentiments exactly...

[2bighorn]

I have to wonder, since there is so much brow beating over silly things like "this guy runs away, and is afraid to fight" or "he isnt much of a pilot because he boom and zooms" or my personal favorite "well im smarter than so and so because my score is lower".

The player ranked 1st has the highest rank not lowest and in AH (as in most sports/games) also the highest score.
Player ranked 6356 has low rank (and low score), because he's ranked lower than 6355 other players.

Score is not based on IQ (it was planned but found to be too discriminatory).

Top Gun III will be about virtual pilots (AH players). Boom & zoom, running, cherry picking, toolsheding don't make a blockbuster. If you gave up your movie career, continue whatever you were doing, otherwise you'll have to fight at least every 10th sortie.



On a more serious note, HTC basically messed up with advertisement, something about "Premier WWII Combat Experience".
Stupid lawyers argued that "Combat" means to engage in fighting (attempt to defeat, subdue, or destroy an enemy).

The most vocal group of late war MA petitioned the courts, but judge ruled that "Running" is "to flee or escape; leave a place of engagement with the intention of never returning" and it is not in any way compatible with advertised "Combat"...

Since that time, what counts is fight...

[Zazen13]

Let me get this straight.  Are you all really having an argument over terminology?  Whether Situational Awareness is broad enough to include dueling or if a new term like Tactical Awareness must be introduced?

As yourself these questions:  What job does the term Situational Awareness have in our air-combat language?  If we add another term like Tactical Awareness are we discovering something new, or limiting the scope of Situational Awareness?

I like that distillation. I like to think of them differently because in your mind, when you are fighting they are quite different. I find having distinct terminology for them makes the fundamental principles involved easier to conceptualize. Instead of Situational Awareness we could probably call it Strategic Awareness then when you refer to Tactical Awareness the differences are very clear.  

Tactical Awareness is the concentration of attention on factors specifically and exclusively relating to your aircraft and that of a single opponent you are intimately engaged with. Those factors are very finite, predictable, easily observable and identifiable making Tactical Awareness relatively easy to persistently maintain.

Strategic Awareness is the perpetual concentration of attention on all factors in your visual vicinity for the purpose of threat assessment, anticipation of response and to provide the basis for strategic decision making such as wether or not to switch targets mid-engagement, disengage or reengage, etc. The myriad of potential factors involved in Strategic Awareness are for all practical purposes infinite, therefore much more difficult to persistently maintain. The information itself and the decisions that must be made on the basis of the interpretation of those factors are not generally applicable to a 1 vs 1 encounters.

Switching targets, engaging, and disengaging is an example of the active principle of Strategic Awareness and very crucial in multi-plane engagements. With poor SA you will not know when and if to do these things which is extremely important. In a 1 vs 1 duel none of that is a consideration. Some of the most frustrated MA flyers I know are the ones that approach the MA with the 1 vs 1 duel mindset. They tend to target fixate and are the ones crying about getting cherrypicked and gang-banged all the time. It's not their fault, they have great Tactical Awareness, but their Strategic Awareness is almost nonexistent, they haven't cultivated it to the degree whereby they can discriminate between engagements, switch targets, engage and disengage based on factors outside the immediate tactical sphere.