Author Topic: What counts?  (Read 4341 times)

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: What counts?
« Reply #151 on: August 20, 2008, 02:07:28 PM »
Did you actually read the document or are you just looking at the chart? The flowchart has nothing to do with the true nature of the mental process in your brain, it's an arbitrary subdivision for the purpose of retrospective analysis. We can only dream of understanding, through compartmentalization, brain function that simplistically. By its very nature retrospective analysis is the examination of "dead things", contrived symbolic artifacts of what actually occurred in real time. Endlsey acknowledges that in the document, noting that in actuality the SA>Decision dynamic is often a single mental operation. But, the choice to treat them separately is made to artificially dissect the component aspects of the often indivisible mental process of SA for the purpose of evaluation and 3rd party inspection of events after the fact...Let me create some other examples that may help...

Example #1:

Let's say there's an athlete who is "in the zone". Say it's a wide receiver in football. The ball is hiked, he runs his pattern, the QB throws the ball, he sees the ball, sees the defender coming toward him, he observes the trajectory and velocity of the ball, he arrives at the place where he knew it would be, jumps up and catches it. If we had the ability to do a PET scan on the receiver during that entire process there would be just one continuous mental operation. There would not be an interface or temporal gap between the information he was aware of and the performance of the various actions resulting in the catch. The decision how, when and where to catch the ball was a singular and ongoing function of the continuous real time observations not a separate operation. If he had separated his observations from his actions he would not be "in the zone" first of all. He would also almost certainly destroy his timing and fail to catch the ball even if the decision he arrived at "manually" was the same as the "automatic" one his brain produced as the observations were actually taking place. He would not be a professional athlete for long if he mentally separated the single SA>Decision process.

Example #2:

You are walking along the sidewalk talking to your friend. Suddenly, you trip on a raised concrete sidewalk tile, your brain instantly realizes you're falling via your senses and without your assent or intervention decides to move both of your arms quickly in an effort to protect your skull and break your fall. That is one single mental process of SA>Decision. If the SA>Decision process was actually separate in your brain, you would be unable to respond quickly enough with a formulated decision based on the deliberate analysis of observation and you'd crack your skull open on the sidewalk.
 

Oh my, let me try. When we talk about "SA->decision->act" process, we break it down to understand what's going on and how they relate to each other. Very similar to when we talk of brain response to stimuli. Good example is reflex. And again, it's the same input->processing-> reaction. When you measure reflex ie response time, you'd think it has to be instant single action event, or how else you could response so quickly. It's still a process, breakable down to few distinct functions of human body, even though people view it as single event.

In combat, due to circumstances and danger people have to deal with instincts like escape reflex, etc. For that reason they are re-trained to perform certain way which is (for the most part) exactly opposite of what they'd normally do.
It starts with awareness, analysis of situations and performing an action based on decision. This is repeated so many times that it becomes what they call "muscle memory". The whole process is pushed into unconscious part and hence becomes much faster. It is still, the very same process though.

And those who excel at it perform in very fluid fashion. It is undesirable to slow down in order to 'compute' gazillion of possibilities, because in most of the cases there are only few very likely to happen, whilst for the rests, odds are very small, so they are filtered out.

Your first example is no different than gunnery in AH. There is only one point where bullets path will intersect. You'd have to put lot of thought into it because you have to be aware of all environmental factors ie how fast bullets travel, time to target, speed of target, balistics, etc. At first you'd consciously compute the lead, and almost alway be late in snapshots, but with repetition (training) you'd get it right. From that point you don't have to 'compute' the lead consciously, hence your timing is better. It is a process, yet it has to be broken down in order to understand what's going on and to train properly.




 

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #152 on: August 20, 2008, 02:44:03 PM »
Oh my, let me try. When we talk about "SA->decision->act" process, we break it down to understand what's going on and how they relate to each other. Very similar to when we talk of brain response to stimuli. Good example is reflex. And again, it's the same input->processing-> reaction. When you measure reflex ie response time, you'd think it has to be instant single action event, or how else you could response so quickly. It's still a process, breakable down to few distinct functions of human body, even though people view it as single event.


You've got it I think. We could break down absolutely anything into a wide variety of arbitrarily contrived compartmentalization's for the purpose of retrospective evaluation and analysis. But, it's just like dissecting a cat. I can dissect a cat, examine his brain, his alimentary canal, lungs, heart, etc. I can  label, classify and put into tiny jars filled with formaldehyde all his little organs in an effort to evaluate the feline species physiologically. But, It is not anything at all like knowing that cat as a living creature in real-time as he sits on my lap purring as I pet him. To say those two things are congruent expressions of the same experience of the cat is to demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of actual experience and symbolic representation. That misunderstanding is no different than the real story of an African Tribesman who saw a large sign with a picture of an Elephant on it. With a battle cry he heaved his spear at it, then he got really upset when he walked up to it and smelled it, but it didn't smell like an Elephant or feel like an elephant. He had no concept whatsoever of the profound difference between manufactured symbolism and natural reality.

I have worked in the field for years. I can promise you the scientific process of dissecting concepts and putting aspects of it into little compartmentalized jars is not for the purpose of creating a symbolic facsimile of the actual thing to be considered one in the same. It is done purely to achieve a more easily observable and less abstract representation of something to facilitate the discrimination of cause and effect relationships of aspects presented artificially in isolation from the whole naturally occurring process and to  make data easier to collect, quantify and manage.

Here is an actual example of this intrinsic flaw of scientific dissection and observation. A physics research lab was doing work with subatomic particles. The work was producing strange results that could not be accounted for by any known theory of quantum mechanics. Serendipitously one scientist produced some data that was generated accidentally during some equipment calibration tests. That data was very different than the data produced during the controlled experiments. They quickly surmised that the simple act of observing something scientifically actually changed the behavior and properties of that which is observed. In its natural, unobserved state, it would not manifest those anomalous properties and behaviors. So, just the presence of an observer distorts or even invalidates the results to a degree. It doesn't make results obtained in this way useless so long as the data and conclusions derived from them are understood to be an artifact of the real, natural thing, altered and contorted by the mere act of being observed and scientifically scrutinized.

So, looking at Endsley's flow chart and saying this must be a precise template of human brain function as it relates to the process is not only not the intention of it, but it's a complete and utter impossibility. Neuroscience is no where even close to that kind of simplistic symbolic representation of real time brain function.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 03:21:39 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline 1Boner

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: What counts?
« Reply #153 on: August 20, 2008, 02:49:14 PM »
<<<<<<< A very real representation of simplistic brain function. :aok
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: What counts?
« Reply #154 on: August 20, 2008, 03:04:21 PM »
So, looking at Endsley's flow chart and saying this must be a precise template of human brain function as it relates to the process is not only not the intention of it, but it's a complete and utter impossibility. Neuroscience is no where even close to that kind of simplistic representation of real time brain function.

Well, to be fair, Endsley chart does not try to explain how brain works in any way. It just breaks down cognitive process from system management rather than psychological or neurological point of view.

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2008, 03:12:08 PM »
Well, to be fair, Endsley chart does not try to explain how brain works in any way. It just breaks down cognitive process from system management rather than psychological or neurological point of view.

Exactly, it is a purely symbolic representation of a concept presented in a way specifically modelled for the purpose of making the process more easily dissected after the fact for the evaluation and analysis of outcomes. It is not in any way, shape or form intended to be a cute little snapshot of what your brain is actually doing when you react to your environment in real-time.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 03:24:44 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10171
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Re: What counts?
« Reply #156 on: August 20, 2008, 03:24:51 PM »
1st, I must say, I have never in the 13+ years of flying with  / against / and talking on any Forum , had any problems, confrontations, arguments, fusses etc..with  Zazen, and have only good  memories of interacting with him in-game or on forums throughout the years....and I do not ever think that to change for  the future....

You've got it I think.

Zazen, 2Bighorn has had it! understood it, and explained it as most all long time  properly taught/trained Game Players  understand it..... he just does it in  laymen's terminology ( ie...is best to walk across the bridge, instead of walking around a lake, to get to the other side )

I have worked in the field for years. I can promise you the scientific process of dissecting concepts and putting aspects of it into little compartmentalized jars is not for the purpose of creating a symbolic facsimile of the actual thing to be considered one in the same. It is done purely to achieve a more easily observable and less abstract representation of something to facilitate the discrimination of cause and effect relationships of aspects presented artificially in isolation from the whole naturally occurring process, for the purpose of making data easier to collect, quantify and manage.
I am trying to figure out how Biology plays into  a discussion on SA.........and how SA is applied?

Here is an actual example of this intrinsic flaw of scientific dissection and observation. A physics research lab was doing work with subatomic particles. The work was producing strange results that could not be accounted for by any known theory of quantum mechanics. Serendipitously one scientist produced some data that was generated accidentally during some equipment calibration tests. That data was very different than the data produced during the controlled experiments. They quickly surmised that the simple act of observing something scientifically actually changed the behavior and properties of that which is observed. In its natural, unobserved state, it would not manifest those anomalous properties. So, just the presence of an observer distorts or even invalidates the results to a degree. It doesn't make results obtained in this way useless so long as the data and conclusions derived from them are understood to be an artifact of the real, natural thing, altered and contorted by the mere act of being observed and scientifically scrutinized.

how can one compare Physics(Chemistry?) with something that is a total different environment/subject?

Example:  in a flying F14 you have your RIO and the Pilot, is the RIO not an observer?  would the Pilot perform differently if the RIO was not there?

Example: If you was to have an A6-E flying , you have 2 in the cockpit, ( pardon me for not remembering the "title" of the 2nd guy ), would he not be an observer of the pilot, again would the pilot perform or act in any different way if he did not have his partner?

Example: you have  4 Fighter Planes flying,  as they fly regardless of being in combat or are winchester. Are these other 3 ( any 3 vs the 1 ) not observers of the 1?
 I do not logically see how you can compare the above quoted example in regards as to how a person acts when they are observed verses unobserved........


So, looking at Endsley's flow chart and saying this must be a precise template of human brain function as it relates to the process is not only not the intention of it, but it's a complete and utter impossibility. Neuroscience is no where even close to that kind of simplistic symbolic representation of real time brain function.

Every single thing, chart, picture, book, Speech, etc.ad infinium is open to one's own interpretation , a Chart , in this case Endsley's Chart is just a "Teaching  Aid" in a way to help the people looking at it and studying, researching, learning SA...to visualize and interpet what the subject "SA"  is about .........it is nothing more and it is nothing less...

EDIT: dang I type to slow......2 post made before I could type my reply out
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 03:37:52 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #157 on: August 20, 2008, 03:38:30 PM »
I do not logically see how you can compare the above quoted example in regards as to how a person acts when they are observed verses unobserved........



Actually, people, through self-consciousness, do behave differently whether alone or in a group, but that is a topic for another discussion and not what I was talking about here.

Natural phenomena, including brain function, when scrutinized scientifically, are "removed" from their natural state of purely objective reality. The more scrutiny applied to dissect the process the more divorced the conceptualization becomes from the reality of it. The observer influences and skews the results to the point he "kills it", rendering the artificially manufactured symbolic representation of it a fuzzy shadow of the real thing. It may still retain the outline of the real thing, but its essence is now quite different than the natural incarnation.

This whole process of symbolic representation can be useful because it makes abstract concepts easier to explain, quantify, rationalize and disseminate. But, the danger is, if we try to pass off convenient, contrived symbolic imagery for the real thing we risk becoming like the African Tribesman, heaving our spears at pictures of Elephants...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 03:47:34 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #158 on: August 20, 2008, 04:00:25 PM »
I am trying to figure out how Biology plays into  a discussion on SA.........and how SA is applied?


We got to this part of the debate when I advocated that SA could be considered as an amalgam of two aspects, active and passive. Passive SA is the observations themselves. Active SA is the immediate connection made in your mind at the instant of observation to a conditioned, learned, or instinctive decision/reaction to the observation. I argued that the observation and the decision to react in a certain way, was not necessarily a different mental operation any more than if I threw a rock at your head you would just duck. You wouldn't have an internal dialogue with yourself once you saw the rock coming at you, "Hey that's a rock coming at my head, should I duck? or should I let it hit me?". Your mind makes that decision for you without any conscious intervention or any separate or distinct mental process.

We then agreed that one could manually override the "automatic" decision with a "manual" one and in doing so create a distinctively separate mental operation. Then we also agreed that superior "knowledge" like advanced ACM techniques would increase your mind's repertoire of possible decisions/reactions it could choose from based on the exact same observations, leaving more options for you to override the "automatic" decision for other reasons beyond the scope of SA like (personality, deception, unpredictability, etc)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 04:24:09 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7456
Re: What counts?
« Reply #159 on: August 20, 2008, 04:03:49 PM »
blah blah blah, ya'll are as bad as kweassa and badz....

Situational Awareness is nothing more than being able to effectively (one hopes) utilize all information at hand.  said information is all inclusive, from hardware (plane) to wetware (pilot) to environmental.

SA can only be quantitive to a point in terms of immediacy, because each of us has different thresh-holds before a complete failure, or disregardence occurs - while some may appear to be near omniscient (levi in his little hordlette), no one actually is, we all die.

That being said, I'll leave you with a quote from my namesake's book...

"A man who pays attention to what's going on around him, will go far."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 04:05:57 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #160 on: August 20, 2008, 04:08:31 PM »
"A man who pays attention to what's going on around him, will go far."

That's a fact...Shane  :salute
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: What counts?
« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2008, 05:08:29 PM »
Did you actually read the document or are you just looking at the chart? The flowchart has nothing to do with the true nature of the mental process in your brain, it's an arbitrary subdivision for the purpose of retrospective analysis. We can only dream of understanding, through compartmentalization, brain function that simplistically. By its very nature retrospective analysis is the examination of "dead things", contrived symbolic artifacts of what actually historically occurred in real time. Endlsey acknowledges that in the document, noting that in actuality the SA>Decision dynamic is often a single mental operation. But, the choice to treat them separately is made to artificially dissect the component aspects of the often indivisible mental process of SA for the purpose of evaluation and 3rd party inspection of events after the fact...Let me create some other examples that may help...
You've got it I think. We could break down absolutely anything into a wide variety of arbitrarily contrived compartmentalization's for the purpose of retrospective evaluation and analysis. But, it's just like dissecting a cat. I can dissect a cat, examine his brain, his alimentary canal, lungs, heart, etc. I can  label, classify and put into tiny jars filled with formaldehyde all his little organs in an effort to evaluate the feline species physiologically.

This looks like a good time to review who wants to dissect and analyze the topic...
It's important to establish that there's a not so subtle difference between Situational Awareness and Tactical Awareness. Situational Awareness implies the assimilation of area wide information consisting of multiple bandits, friendlies, their relative E states, projected vectors and likely intentions on an ongoing basis. Then using that information to formulate a dynamic action plan for working the entire engagement.

Tactical Awareness is the diligent scrutiny of a single opponent's moves, behaviors and likely intentions in order to decide the proper counter-maneuvers to deal with him specifically, in hermetic isolation, as efficiently as possible. Tactical Awareness is always required in any engagement, situational awareness is not.

Never losing sight of a bandit after the merge, watching him in order to decide how to best counter his merge move is an example of tactical awareness.

Keeping a vigilant eye on the bandit above you who you suspect may be coming in for a gun pass on you just as you are about to go to guns on his buddy you've been working is an example of situational awareness.
That would be you.  And since you initiated the discussion of dissecting SA, it is not unreasonable for anyone wishing to engage in that discussion to expect that we try to communicate with mutual terminology.  And since you are subjecting SA to analysis, arbitrary compartmentalizing, and dissection, it is not unreasonable to want to work off of a common model.  If that common model wants to examine SA independent of the resulting decision, I do not see why that is a major problem for you.

It is extremely arrogant of you to assume everyone else in the room does not know the difference between a flow chart (system analysis modeling a multidimensional cognative construct), and what goes on in the mind when it is practically applied.  It's really a no brainer.  Nearly anyone on this bbs should have a basic grasp of what SA is based on experiencing it in practice.  Beating a drum pointing out the difference between the actual abstract experience and a commonly understood model is superfluous.




Offline redman555

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2193
Re: What counts?
« Reply #162 on: August 20, 2008, 05:23:31 PM »
personally, i dont belive score means everything, because not everyone (like myself) can be on ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, so we may have higher scores because of it, personally, i belive i am  a good pilot, and so do others, i could care less about score, because, for all u know, all those kills they got, could b vulches,cherry picks, and BnZs


-BigBOBCH
~364th C-HAWKS FG~

Ingame: BigBOBCH

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: What counts?
« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2008, 06:23:14 PM »
assume everyone else in the room does not know the difference between a flow chart (system analysis modeling a multidimensional cognative construct), and what goes on in the mind when it is practically applied.  It's really a no brainer.  Nearly anyone on this bbs should have a basic grasp of what SA is based on experiencing it in practice. 

To be honest I would have thought so too, but it's obvious by some of the posts here that we would both be gravely mistaken in that regard...There's a lot of African Tribesman heaving their spears at pictures of Elephants...

Which reminds me, where's your spear?  :D

<Zazen holds a picture of an Elephant in front of his head for Murdr>  :devil
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:29:06 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: What counts?
« Reply #164 on: August 20, 2008, 06:51:10 PM »

Example: If you was to have an A6-E flying , you have 2 in the cockpit, ( pardon me for not remembering the "title" of the 2nd guy ), would he not be an observer of the pilot, again would the pilot perform or act in any different way if he did not have his partner?


He's the B/N (Bombardier/Navigator).


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.