Author Topic: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?  (Read 2580 times)

Offline babek-

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 04:57:28 PM »
1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.

2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).

3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power

4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.


Offline Dowding

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 05:00:13 PM »
Personally I think they are waiting for a spark to start the steam roller moving again. They'll take Tbilisi and install a puppet regime. I can't see any other reason behind their actions.

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1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.

2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).

3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power

4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.

Your whole argument is based on '2000 civilians killed'. This has not been verified. The Red Cross is barred from South Ossetia. Hospital records obtained from there show only 44 deaths at the capital's infirmiary.

You should wait for independent corroboration before setting up the court-room.
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Offline avionix

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2008, 05:01:50 PM »
Quote
Insert Quote
1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.

2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).

3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power

4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.

Can you show us proof of this other than what is printed in Pravda?
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Offline babek-

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2008, 05:04:05 PM »
Personally I think they are waiting for a spark to start the steam roller moving again. They'll take Tbilisi and install a puppet regime. I can't see any other reason behind their actions.

Your whole argument is based on '2000 civilians killed'. This has not been verified. The Red Cross is barred from South Ossetia. Hospital records obtained from there show only 44 deaths at the capital's infirmiary.

You should wait for independent corroboration before setting up the court-room.


Yes - but I think its a fact that the president of a country ordered his military to attack a city and many civilians were killed. Thats very much like Saddam and his war against the iraqi kurds.

I would not accept a mad man like Saddam/Sakashvili to be my president if he ordered to attack and kill my people - regardless if his troops killed 40, 400 or 4000 civilians.
And who knows how many ossetians would have been massacred if the russians have not reacted so quickly - kicking out the georgians from the ossetian territory?

Offline Mr No Name

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2008, 05:06:50 PM »
They need to be kicked out... I don't care who or what combination of people do it, but S.O. is a part of Georgia... Russians have no business there.  If you believe S.O. should be a splinter state when all of Georgia has a population of 5M or so, then please, pretty please let my state out of this soon-to-be-socialist union!
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Offline avionix

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 05:07:42 PM »
Wher is the proof that he ordered said attack?  Where is your corroboration?  To make these kinds of blanket statements, you must have proof.
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 05:11:20 PM »
I agree to that. But the same thing could be said about the Iraq invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not just wake up one day and decided to invade Kuwait for its oil. There were other reasons behind it.

I can see alot of parallels between Iraqs invasion of Kuwait, and Russias invasion of Georgia. And to be honest, the same measures should be taken to solve this conflict as in Gulf War 1.

You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia.  US/Iraq1    Russia/Georgia :aok

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Offline Maniac

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 05:26:41 PM »
You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia.  US/Iraq1    Russia/Georgia :aok

Please type more. I cant decypher your post.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 05:38:31 PM »
You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia.  US/Iraq1    Russia/Georgia :aok

IMHO, it doesn't really parallel, Mark. Mainly because of the Actions' we took, versus Iraq's, and the way the Russians' handled this. They are more like two different stories.

Quote
Iraq was also stuck with a war debt of roughly $75 billion[citation needed]. Borrowing money from the U.S. was making Iraq dependent on outside loans, embarrassing a leader who had sought to define Arab nationalism. Saddam also borrowed a tremendous amount of money from other Arab states during the 1980s to fight Iran. Faced with rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, Saddam desperately sought out cash once again, this time for postwar reconstruction.


Tensions with Kuwait
The end of the war with Iran served to deepen latent tensions between Iraq and its wealthy neighbor Kuwait. Saddam saw his war with Iran as having spared Kuwait from the imminent threat of Iranian domination. Since the struggle with Iran had been fought for the benefit of the other Persian Gulf Arab states as much as for Iraq, he argued, a share of Iraqi debt should be forgiven. Saddam urged the Kuwaitis to forgive the Iraqi debt accumulated in the war, some $30 billion, but the Kuwaitis refused. (Humphreys, 105)

Also to raise money for postwar reconstruction, Saddam pushed oil-exporting countries to raise oil prices by cutting back oil production. Kuwait refused to cut production. In addition to refusing the request, Kuwait spearheaded the opposition in OPEC to the cuts that Saddam had requested. Kuwait was pumping large amounts of oil, and thus keeping prices low, when Iraq needed to sell high-priced oil from its wells to pay off a huge debt.

On another compelling level, Saddam Hussein and many Iraqis considered the boundary line between Iraq and Kuwait, cutting Iraq off from the sea, a historical wrong imposed by British imperial officials in 1922. (Humphreys, 105) Saddam was not alone in this belief. For at least half a century, Iraqi nationalists were espousing emphatically the belief that Kuwait was historically an integral part of Iraq, and that Kuwait had only come into being through the maneuverings of British imperialism. This belief was one of the few articles of faith uniting the political scene in a nation rife with sharp social, ethnic, religious, and ideological divides. (Humphreys, 105)

The colossal extent of Kuwaiti oil reserves also intensified tensions in the region. The oil reserves of Kuwait (with a population of a mere 2 million next to Iraq's 25) were roughly equal to those of Iraq. Taken together Iraq and Kuwait sat on top of some 20 percent of the world's known oil reserves; as an article of comparison, Saudi Arabia holds 25 percent. (Humphreys, 105)

Furthermore Saddam argued that the Kuwaiti monarchy had slant drilled oil out of wells that Iraq considered to be within its disputed border with Kuwait. Given that at the time Iraq was not regarded as a pariah state, Saddam was able to complain about the slant drilling to the U.S. State Department. Although this had continued for years, Saddam now needed oil money to stem a looming economic crisis. Saddam still had an experienced and well-equipped army, which he used to influence regional affairs. He later ordered troops to the Iraq – Kuwait border.

 
U.S. Ambassador to Iraq April Catherine Glaspie meets Saddam for an emergency meeting.As Iraq-Kuwait relations rapidly deteriorated, Saddam was receiving conflicting information about how the U.S. would respond to the prospects of an invasion. For one, Washington had been taking measures to cultivate a constructive relationship with Iraq for roughly a decade. The Reagan administration gave Saddam roughly $40 billion in aid in the 1980s to fight Iran, nearly all of it on credit. The U.S. also sent billions of dollars to Saddam to keep him from forming a strong alliance with the Soviets.[28] Saddam's Iraq became "the third-largest recipient of US assistance"[29] .

U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie met with Saddam in an emergency meeting on July 25, where the Iraqi leader stated his intention to continue talks. U.S. officials attempted to maintain a conciliatory line with Iraq, indicating that while George H. W. Bush and James Baker did not want force used, they would not take any position on the Iraq – Kuwait boundary dispute and did not want to become involved. [30]Whatever Glapsie did or did not say in her interview with Saddam, the Iraqis assumed that the United States had invested too much in building relations with Iraq over the 1980s to sacrifice them for Kuwait. (Humphreys, 106) Later, Iraq and Kuwait then met for a final negotiation session, which failed. Saddam then sent his troops into Kuwait.

Although no reliable first-hand information on Saddam's appraisal of the situation exists, we can surmise from the prewar standpoint of the Iraqi leader and his interests and the conflicting prewar signals from Washington that the invasion was likely born out of Iraq's postwar debt problem and faltering attempts to gain the resources needed for postwar reconstruction, rebuild the devastated Iraqi economy, and stabilize the domestic political situation.[31]

This is something that many people don't look at anymore, and that was Saddam's reason to go into Kuwait in the first place. Many thought it was a simple land grab, but it was much more...and remember, we came to Kuwait's aid (eventually.)

This is different, more like something from the Spanish-American war or World War one. The Russian's were pre-positioned, chomping at the bit, ready for any little spark. Even if it was simply a Georgian border contingent trying to defend itself against separatist artillery fire.

Offline AKIron

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2008, 05:43:12 PM »
I think there will be a lot of bluster from all but nothing serious will happen. Well, until December.  ;)
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Offline john9001

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2008, 05:48:27 PM »
time to send stinger missiles and anti-tank rockets to Georgia. You remember the Russian retreat from Afghanistan.

NATO and Rice are meeting on Tuesday to discusses the failure of russia to keep it's word on withdrawal and Ukraine has given full support to NATO. I think the russian people will suffer because of Putin.

this will be interesting.

Offline Elfie

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2008, 05:53:27 PM »
Yup, he gambled and lost. Now the population gets to suffer for his stupidity. Personally (and im not gonna start arguing why again) I feel that SO and Abkhazia or however its spelled should be under Russia. Most of the citizens there wants to anyway. Then russia can leave Georgia alone. They will leave when they are done anyway. The Russians knows it wont do them any good to occupy Georgia in the long run.

That is a policy of appeasement, give Russia what it wants and they will go home and not ask for more.

When the Soviet Union broke up they made Abkhazia and South Ossetia part of Georgia. This sparked a civil war of sorts that was never completely resolved.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 06:00:02 PM »
1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.

2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).

3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power

4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.



First, it was apparently an artillery duel that started the entire mess. As to who fired first, that we most likely will never know.

Second, Georgian troops didn't attack Abkhazia.

Third, please show where there were terrorist attacks by the Georgians.

Fourth, please show where the Georgian president ordered civilians killed. (Ordering a military attack is not the same as specifically ordering civilians killed.)

As far as the numbers of dead civilians go, I refer you to Dowdings post.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2008, 06:03:22 PM »
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I think the russian people will suffer because of Putin.

The Russians suffered because of the Czars, they suffered because of the communists, suffering because of Putin would just be more of the same.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2008, 06:18:16 PM »
Is this a Devil's Advocate retort?

NO SIR.
 i don't know where it is, or anything about it, except that russia thinks they're great for winnaing a "war" with them.

 so i'm just trying to find out a bit, so i can give an opinion.

 not being a wise assss.............yet :D
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