an Iron curtain has descended across the Continent

[Toad]

Treaty of Versailles was still wet in 1919, that it was a mistake. Us and the Brits' simply shoulda told the French to sit down, shut up, and be glad that they still spoke their native tongue, and were free to be as obnoxious as they wished. That damn document is what drove Hitler into power, and got the German people behind him.

Pardon me for mentioning this but with the exception of Wilson/US, ALL the Allies were for punishing Germany to an extreme level. The Brits and the French viewed the punishment of Germany in essentially the same way.

[lasersailor184]

It would mainly be a change in the first part of the link that Furball put up...I think he would have omitted the admiration.

Especially after the Berlin Airlift, Hungary in '56, and Czechloslovakia in '68.

And, he, and quite a few other British and American politicians, knew even when the ink on the Treaty of Versailles was still wet in 1919, that it was a mistake. Us and the Brits' simply shoulda told the French to sit down, shut up, and be glad that they still spoke their native tongue, and were free to be as obnoxious as they wished. That damn document is what drove Hitler into power, and got the German people behind him. I don't know if this speech was a Barb at Chamberlain, or if it was pointed at the French, But I believe that was what he was alluding to when he mentioned that war could have been averted as late as '33 or '35.

Not quite.  That implies that practically anyone could have driven germany to be a world power.  The Treaty of Versailles was a tool, a minor tool at that.

[Chalenge]

Putin is evil and needs to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

[Serenity]

Why are those flights by the Russia air force even necessary? The flights do nothing to promote their own national security and in fact, are just a relic of the Cold War. Russia seems determined to restart the Cold War by this and other actions.

Why are airshow demonstrations and the Blue Angels necessary? Why do we fly fighter jets over sports games? This is a morale push by the Russians to prove to the world AND themselves that they are still in the game. We do the same thing over here, only no one is dumb/brave enough to tell us it's not always OUR airspace we're flying in.

[FrodeMk3]

Pardon me for mentioning this but with the exception of Wilson/US, ALL the Allies were for punishing Germany to an extreme level. The Brits and the French viewed the punishment of Germany in essentially the same way.

You're right about that, Toad; Insofar as what you find in a lot of places like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/treaty_of_versailles.htm

Lasersailor, I'm more of the impression that it did more to spur Germany than anything else; For, it not only motivated Hitler, but it incensed the German people to back him as well. Here's an excerpt from one last link about Versailles:

The Treaty of Versailles was the basic cause of the Second World War, the holocaust and the Cold War.   Why?   Because it was a treaty made without thought of fairness or consideration as to what its effects might be.   Instead the treaty created an alien system of democracy that was never more than stable and which because of the constitution's flaws allowed  Germany to be torn apart by extremist political parties like the Communists and worse Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.   In effect it put Germany in a situation it couldn't get out of, with unworkable political systems and economic and social problems just waiting to explode (hence the Nazis and their scapegoating of Jews became much easier).   Had the treaty been fair and balanced it's likely Germany would never have become embroiled in starting a Second World War, nor would the madman Hitler have come to power and so the Holocaust would never have happed.   Could this have been predicted?   Lloyd George was sure the Treaty of Versailles would lead to a Second World War and he was right.

A private communication to www.johndclare.net from Dave Wallbanks (2004)

Dave Wallbanks studied history at Bradford University, and PGCE at Newcastle and is now history Curriculum Leader at an 11-16 Community College in the North of England.

http://www.johndclare.net/peace_treaties1_Answer.htm

[FrodeMk3]

Seems they are digging in these lil russian ticks.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405242,00.html

They aren't even driving the right way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

[Elfie]

They aren't even driving the right way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

I saw that earlier today. In spite of evidence surfacing to the contrary, Russia is maintaining that Georgia committed genocide.

[Elfie]

meh....forgot this.....

From your link Frode,

While Western leaders have called Russia's response disproportionate, Medvedev repeated Russian accusations of genocide.

"The world realized that even now there are political freaks who were ready to kill innocent people for the sake of political fashions and who compensated for their own stupidity by eliminating a whole nation," he said.

No one, including Russia, prior to this invasion had recognized South Ossetia as a nation and now all of a sudden Russia is calling them a nation and saying the Georgians eliminated them.....

That reminds me of the logic used by the Soviets in the book about Hartmann.

[Dnil]

and now we start to understand the wing of f-22s being stood up in Alaska.

[FrodeMk3]

meh....forgot this.....

From your link Frode,

No one, including Russia, prior to this invasion had recognized South Ossetia as a nation and now all of a sudden Russia is calling them a nation and saying the Georgians eliminated them.....

That reminds me of the logic used by the Soviets in the book about Hartmann.

I guess that has been the most suprising thing out of this entire fiasco...the return of all of the old cold-war era Soviet rhetoric, in virtually it's pure, undiluted form. I couldn't even tell the difference between Putin, Medvedev, or Boroda.

[Yeager]

borada is a tool of the putin regime.  Most likely to save his own ass, or at least to use as leverage at his own trial

[Serenity]

and now we start to understand the wing of f-22s being stood up in Alaska.

Why? So we have somewhere to retreat from? F-22 will not see combat until the **** REALLY hits the fan and we have no choice. We payed too much for them to use them in combat... 

[Elfie]

I guess that has been the most suprising thing out of this entire fiasco...the return of all of the old cold-war era Soviet rhetoric, in virtually it's pure, undiluted form. I couldn't even tell the difference between Putin, Medvedev, or Boroda.

Maybe they are all one and the same? 

Seriously though, I agree that it has been most surprising to see the resurgence of all the Cold War rhetoric from Russia.

[Elfie]

Why? So we have somewhere to retreat from? F-22 will not see combat until the **** REALLY hits the fan and we have no choice. We payed too much for them to use them in combat... 

I think I would disagree with that. Generals just love to show off their bright shiny new toys and show everyone just how well they work.

[Serenity]

I think I would disagree with that. Generals just love to show off their bright shiny new toys and show everyone just how well they work.

F-22s haven't been working so well lately... I think the F-22 will only be employed on milkruns where there is no risk of losing them. To have invested in them at all was a big mistake IMHO.