Making Hard turns While Keepin E up? How too?

[20mmrain]

        I have had some problems with turning and keeping my E up. I adjust my throttle slowly but i think were my problem is in the speed of how I'm pulling my joystick. I know this Question is very vague but if I can hear all different point of views on this I think I can get this straightened out.       Thankyou 20mmrain

[Motherland]

If you make a tight turn you're going to bleed E... period. You can do a high yo-yo to try to conserve it (climb while your turning and then dive when you're done; this helps you turn tighter as well), but you're still going to be bleeding E.

[Soulyss]

Generally speaking a turn or other maneuver is either going to cost you either speed or altitude.  The idea of conserving your E is to make sure you're trading either speed for altitude or the other way around.  If you're going to turn you either want to be nose low to help negate the speed loss, or you want to go nose high to trade that speed to altitude.  Also you want as much power available as your plane can give you to help regain what E that is inevitably lost.

Maybe someone else can explain it better but I think that's the straight forward answer to your question. However there are times when you won't want to do any of the things I just talked about.  The trick in my humble opinion is to make the E you do use count for something.  There are several times when I'll turn with the throttle back because I'm TRYING to burn more E than my opponent, while trying to get him to over shoot me for example.  I think it's not as much about frantically trying to conserve your energy state as it is about managing it, knowing when to let it go to gain angles and when to conserve it while bleeding the other guy dry.  

[Zazen13]

Yea, to simplify what Soulyss says. Turn like a corkscrew, never flat. Watch WWII fighter films they always go up, roll then come around partially inverted, that cuts the angle and saves E.

[PFactorDave]

You can do a high yo-yo to try to conserve it

In my opinion, learning how to and when to use the hi and lo yo-yo's is one of the first steps into the world of air combat manuevers that every pilot should take.  Simply understanding what the yo-yo's are and what they do for you is a big step in improving your E-management.

[Zazen13]

In my opinion, learning how to and when to use the hi and lo yo-yo's is one of the first steps into the world of air combat manuevers that every pilot should take.  Simply understanding what the yo-yo's are and what they do for you is a big step in improving your E-management.

Definitely...Most people don't think 3 dimensionally very well, so using the oblique turns to cut angles and conserve E is not natural or intuitive for most.

[BnZ]

A small part of the puzzle:

Every plane has an IAS where it maintains its best rate of turn, corner velocity. WWII prop airplanes have a problem though. They do not have the power to MAINTAIN high-G turns at corner velocity, the induced drag causes them to dump speed in high-G turns, they can only sustain a much lower rate of turn.

Therefore, considerable thought and trickery goes into how and when to use energy, when to conserve and when to pull hard turns in these airplanes. For instance, at the beginning of an engagement, you will generally be well above corner speed. You could just cut throttle and reef around in a hard turn to get down to corner speed, but then all that energy would be gone and you can't get it back easily. So you can reverse with an Immelman, which kills two birds with one stone by getting the speed down quickly AND putting some of that speed in the bank as altitude.

Air speed is your money in your wallet. Altitude is your money in the bank. Act accordingly.

[Agent360]

Im gonna assume your question comes from fight near the deck. If you are not on the deck you can always shallow dive or shallow spiral down to keep at corner speed.

But when you get on the deck or trapped by terrain its another matter.

When this happens it becomes very important to keep at least 200 feet above the deck. When you get slower with a con on your six or chasing one at this alt energy becomes extremly important.

What most people dont understand is that you can get considerable energy over your opponent  by shallow diving to the deck. Most people panic when the get below 100 feet. If you have 100 feet you can use all of it to get an advantage.

Playing the 0 to 500 feet game can get you angles and energy. Remember if they dont play the same game you get both back.

When speed drop below 250 and especially blow 150 a 50 foot alt advantage become golden. And a 50 foot dip to the deck is the same thing. If they dont dip and you do you have more energy and can get around or over the top before they do.

[BaldEagl]

You could just cut throttle and reef around in a hard turn to get down to corner speed, but then all that energy would be gone and you can't get it back easily.

Except in a Spit XVI (depending on the situation).  That's a very useful tactic in the XVI with it's great acceleration.

[Zazen13]

Except in a Spit XVI (depending on the situation).  That's a very useful tactic in the XVI with it's great acceleration.

Watch films of Shane is his La7 as an example of this. When he's in tight that's exactly what he does. He dumps his E, seducing you into dumping yours too, then out accelerates you to create an E advantage out of thin air...Acceleration is an important and infrequentally considered plane attribute.

[20mmrain]

 

[20mmrain]

        Well zazen that's exactly the problem. Now I know the LA7 can accelerate very well and has a high top speed too. But I fly  the spit's, 109,s ki84,s niki's and any other small and nimble plane. But the problem with that is they don't always accelerate the best. For example I know most of the trainers are uber pilots ( texture ect..) But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!

[Anaxogoras]

Simple fix: fly the SpitXVI and you won't bleed e in hard turns.

[Blooz]

        But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!

Don't worry so much about it. Training in the TA against someone that knows you're there and knows you're going to attack isn't the normal way of a merge. In the MA you're going to find that your enemy probably most of the time isn't going to see you or expect you if you plan your attack well. That's very important. Your attack should be planned well before the merge. When you attack you should already be in a very advantagous position. In the TA this rarely happens even if you set it up that way to train because you have no surprise factor working for you. The idea of air combat is to make the enemy a sitting duck so you can kill him as fast and efficiently as possible. It saves time, fuel and ammo. The WW1 style of "ring around the rosey" (turn and burn) dogfight is a waste of time and resources. Try to think far ahead of the fight to get that clean quick kill then all the other problems don't become, well... problems anymore.

[Zazen13]

        Well zazen that's exactly the problem. Now I know the LA7 can accelerate very well and has a high top speed too. But I fly  the spit's, 109,s ki84,s niki's and any other small and nimble plane. But the problem with that is they don't always accelerate the best. For example I know most of the trainers are uber pilots ( texture ect..) But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!

Yea, don't pull for lead right away. Use lag pursuit. If you pull for lead turns from the beginning they are effectively bleeding you dry. Stay at your optimal turn and use lag pursuit turns until you are ready to go to guns then switch to lead turn.