Author Topic: Intel Solid State Drives  (Read 1231 times)

Offline Kev367th

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 04:18:02 PM »
Using SCSI drives that are still chugging away after 9yrs+!!!!
Thats 24/7/365 in servers running Oracle databases.

Admittedly we had a couple of failures, but nothing anywhere near the failure rates of IDE/SATA drives. No experience of SSD, looks good on paper but still to early to make a decision I think.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 04:31:37 PM »
We use Seagate Cheetah SCSI drives, pretty much exclusively.  I have been using those drives since the late 90's and never had a failure yet.  I have replaced some just due to the sheer age of the drive, but never had one replaced due to failure.

IDE/SATA drives fail all the time.  Not uncommon for me to replace 2 or 3 of those a year.  I would trust an SSD over and IDE/SATA drive.
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 06:04:57 PM »
We use Seagate Cheetah SCSI drives, pretty much exclusively.  I have been using those drives since the late 90's and never had a failure yet.

you know you just cursed your drive to imminent failure skuzzy :)

Offline eagl

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2008, 07:00:10 PM »
I am still on the fence about SSD's.  They still seem to have a limit on the number of writes before they start failing.  Of course, it is a huge number, but it is one of the stealth kind of failures.  You have no idea it is about to happen until it does.


Intel is apparently rating their latest 80 gig drive at 100 gig worth of writes per day for 5 years...  For a consumer drive that's a lot of use.  There is talk of a utility that will provide data on drive health, and there will be 2 S.M.A.R.T. fields that also provide info on drive health.  That ought to pretty much take care of your concerns, at least from the point of view of a consumer drive.  Servers will of course will still need something with a higher rated duty cycle and as you say, the newer memory tech ought to directly address that.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 07:10:05 PM »
Again, I am not against SSD.  They keep getting better.  They just have not reached the reliability of hard drives. I have run drives for over 9 years without a single failure.  No one has been able to show that an SSD will last 9 years running 24/7 in a server environment.  Matter of fact, in the last 9 years, I have never had a hard drive fail and I have a pretty fair number of them being used in pretty hostile conditions.  When SSD's are that good, then I will happily admit your are 100% correct.  Currently, I do not believe they have reached that level yet.

Don't take this in a bad way, but that's the key difference I think between 99% of users and you...  Few people, including hardcore gamers and even a great number of developers, need to get 9 years of server grade duty cycles out of their drives.  I expect a lot from my computer hardware, but even as much as I hate to throw out old hardware I don't have a single hard drive in use that is more than 4 years old even though in the last 16 years only 3 of about 30 hard drives I used have outright failed on me.  All of the "spare" hard drives in my parts bin were removed in good working condition because they were too slow or small, not because they failed.

I used to only recommend ultra-high quality stuff but gave that up when I realized that only one of the people I provide tech support for (family and friends) have ever used a computer for longer than 4 years before upgrading everything.  They don't need server grade hardware, so I quit recommending it and they now get faster stuff for less cost, and can upgrade or replace their computers more often.  And they STILL almost never suffer critical hardware failures, including an extremely low rate of true hard drive failure (as opposed to OS corruption, malware-related data destruction, or user error).
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Offline eagl

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2008, 07:16:18 PM »
How expensive are we talking here? In general?

Also, isn't there a major flaw where XP has to write swap files to the same drive that it was installed on? Wouldn't that negate putting all programs on a normal HD, because the swap file is constantly being written to, regardless of the program directory?

According to the Anandtech article on the new Intel SSD, the 80 gig drive will be a bit under $600.  The drive has wear leveling logic that should allow it to serve as a primary drive (including swap) for 5 years.  Some smart guy did the math (I forget the web site) and he calculated that to use up one of these drives before their rated lifetime, you would have to write to them at the drive controller's maximum data rate for something like 8 hrs a day continuously.  That article convinced me that even an expert user ought to have no problems getting the rated life out of these things.  Everyone worries about SSD write lifecycles, but nobody seems to be reporting early SSDs failing in consumer applications due to exceeding the memory write count.  It's a theoretical problem that doesn't seem to be an issue in real life.

For Skuzzy's uses, yea they're still not suitable.  So just don't use them in a server and like any other hard drive, use a good backup scheme.
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Offline Mustaine

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 07:33:13 PM »
<-- just saying I have in place an IDE HD in use, 40gb segate barracuda for 7 years now, and I have POUNDED it with data. In those 7 years I have re-formatted it 2 times for fresh installs, otherwise data in and out like crazy. it currently has 3% free space, and has hovered around there for 3 years now. I'll kill off enough to get 20% and do a defrag then fill'er back up.

I also have a 20GB IDE western digital still chugging along after 10 years now, about 95% up time (PC almost never rebooted... it is my step-fathers).

I personally have never had a hard drive fail that I've owned, but I have bought "premium" drives. that WD was top of the line back in 1998, same with the seagate.
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2008, 08:55:42 PM »
The difference in work rate between a server and a home computers hard drive is enormous.

As I said earlier we have SCSI drives in a RAID 5 configuration that are running 12 x Oracle 8 databases, and another RAID 5 that are running 8 x Oracle 10 databases.

Theres no way IDE or SATA drives would hold up under that workload.

One of our biggest problems was with 2.5" laptop drives. Some of the guys ran multiple demo databases on them, lucky to last 18-24 months before they died.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2008, 06:26:29 AM »
Eagl, I am aware server use is very different from typical users.  I do use server load testing to qualify any mass storage device I want to purchase.  Yes, I am very critical of mass storage devices.  I have spent a good deal of my career focused on mass storage technology.  From creating test platforms to giving seminars to hard drive design engineers.  I have been around the block a few times in this area.

Personally, I do an enormous amount of video and audio work.  When you are writing 16GB to 30GB of data at a time and then re-writing it two to three times after that, it is pretty easy to kill an SSD device.  Write-leveling is not a panacea for solving the write problem as it depends on the spares available in the device.  It does help extend the life of the device.  The projected life of the memory is at best, a guess.  We have no idea how the manufacturer rates their devices.  There are many factors which can contribute to the failure mode of a memory.

Right now, Intel's SSD's are mostly market-speak.  I am not a bleeding edge technology type.  I prefer hardware that has a history of success behind it.  There is a new memory tech which will obsolete the current SSD's tech and it is showing promise to be a very practical and cost efficient design as well as far more reliable than the current flock of flash based SSD devices.

It is also worth noting that most failures are not write related, but for other problems, although there have been early write failure issues as well.  That is the current state of things though.  In the real world, they have been failing at a higher rate than they should.  Intel's are new, and they may be better.  Only way to know is either to jump on the bandwagon early or wait and let others test them for you.

From my perspective, it does not hurt to wait.
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Offline NHawk

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2008, 07:13:22 AM »
Want reliability?

I still have an HP server drive. It's on wheels, weighs about 100lbs. The platters are belt driven and it sucks more power than a washing machine. When I got it, I obtained the last 2 cards that were available to interface it to a PC from HP.

It's well over 25 years old and still works. :)

Sometimes just for nostalgia sake I power it up and play with it.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2008, 07:33:04 AM »
ROFL!  I still have a couple of 8" Winchester HD's.  They store a massive 10MB and are suitable space heaters as well!  :)
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Offline NHawk

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2008, 09:27:52 AM »
Oh the story behind that drive is something that's hard to believe...

The brilliant people where I was working put the servers in a room that was in the lowest part of the building. For "security" they said.

Murphy struck one day...the server room was flooded with 3 feet of water. The elevated floor did little to protect the drives and they were running when the water hit them.

Insurance replaced the entire computer system and we were wheeling the drives out to the compactor when I asked if I could have one. They were trash so they said it would be OK.

I took it home, dried it out, replace a blown fuse, checked the belts and motor to be sure they were free, plugged it into the dryer outlet (yes 220v operation) and flipped the switch. This thing spun up and I swear I about died laughing. Got the interface cards and found it to be 100% operational. It ran on my BBS as a file server for years after that.

Try that with any drive today and I almost guarantee it won't work.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:22:40 AM by NHawk »
Most of the people you meet in life are like slinkies. Pretty much useless, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2008, 12:08:06 PM »
So, what's the difference, interface-wise, between SCSI and IDE/ATA?

I ordered a Gateway a long time ago and one of my options was to pick a SCSI 20GB HD. I chose that option. Later when I got into building/configuring my own hardware I opened her up. She had the HD running through a IDE cable to a PCI card. I don't know why. I eventually removed the card and put the HD directly into the IDE port on the motherboard, and had no problems whatsoever.

Does SCSI use the same plug as IDE, or did Gateway lie to me and give me a second IDE controller instead of a SCSI controller?

Offline Ghastly

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2008, 12:31:59 PM »
Gateway lied.  The interfaces are completely different.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Intel Solid State Drives
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2008, 12:51:43 PM »
 :furious :mad: