Factoring In Skill With Pilot Ranking

[Guppy35]

How about we do away with ranking, score, and landing (kill) messages altogether?

Guarantee it would improve gameplay from what we have now.

Amen to that.

[oakranger]

Hey All,

I upped an LA7 and got 5 kills.  2nd time a meager 3.  Oh did I mention my pilot skills are average at best.  This is more times than not the average for even me.

I am wondering, other than points, is there a way the plane upped can be factored into the pilot ranking?

If I flew an LA7 (or Spit16, 109-K4, Tempest, F4U-C etc.) all the time it would give the impression that I am among the best.  Like you I've seen some pretty modest planes flown by sharp pilots shoot those perk plane "Aces" right outta the sky.

How can pilot ranking come in line with actual skill?

WT

ranking dosent mean anything as far as how good u are.  All you need to do if figure out what it takes to be rank good.  A good stick, people who do things a aircraft that is unsual.  Ect. i made 12 kills in a 190A-5,  N72 make a 15 kills in a 109 G-2.  Heck, i saw Fencer landing 31 kills in a pony. 

[WarTooth]

Guys,

You have some really good feedback. 

If a formula, though complex, can lead to a more accurate alignment of ranks with skills then so be it. 

On the other hand I see value in doing away with the ranking system altogether as the techniques used to get ranked can be at odds with team, squad, and country efforts.  If it was done away with perhaps the motivations for flying would come into alignment with greater team effort.

As Zazen has clearly pointed out, there are many reasons people play this game and fly the way they do.

Would either proposed solution make the game better for the majority of us? Perhaps. 

WT

[Hazard69]

As far as manipulating scores go.....its simple.

If you up with bombs/rockets sortie scored as attack. Without them you're a fighter? Simple Enough???

<only exception I can think of is a 110G. Thats always in attack mode> 

[SmokinLoon]

Getting kills in the main arenas is %75 luck and plane and %25 skill, IMO.  There is far too much "pickin" and far too many proxy kills to gauge "skill" in an accurate way. 

Getting kills in a 1v1 in the DA is %90 skill with all other things being equal. 

Oh... and the sooner people understand that the plane they're in is worth just as much if not more than their "skill" level... the sooner that miyth can be laid to rest.  Take the average guy and put him in a Spit16 and take the "expert/uber-skillz" guy and put him in the P40B or 109E-4 and I'll put money on the average guy every time.  Ever see any of the "uber" guys land the 6+ kills in a P40B or 109E-4?  Nope.  Aint going to happen.  Take the wonder loud-mouthed slobberdonker himself and he'll get beat 3 of 4 times in the same scenario above. 

[Denholm]

...Take the average guy and put him in a Spit16 and take the "expert/uber-skillz" guy and put him in the P40B or 109E-4 and I'll put money on the average guy every time...

If it's a 1 on 1 you've lost. If an expert has flown the plane long enough they know how to lure average people to their death every time.

[Ack-Ack]

Oh... and the sooner people understand that the plane they're in is worth just as much if not more than their "skill" level... the sooner that miyth can be laid to rest.  Take the average guy and put him in a Spit16 and take the "expert/uber-skillz" guy and put him in the P40B or 109E-4 and I'll put money on the average guy every time.  Ever see any of the "uber" guys land the 6+ kills in a P40B or 109E-4?  Nope.  Aint going to happen.  Take the wonder loud-mouthed slobberdonker himself and he'll get beat 3 of 4 times in the same scenario above. 

Want to put that to the test?  You in any of the four 'uber rides' (LA 7, Spitfire Mk XVI, P-51D, N1K2) and me in a P-38J?  We'll see how successful an average pilot in one of the uber rides fairs against an experienced P-38J player.


ack-ack

[Zazen13]

I wrote an article relating to this topic a few years ago. It may offer some insight.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,157411.0.html

Fighter Rank: Plane & Pilot Analysis


1) Kills per Death
2) Kills per Sortie
3) Kills per Time
4) Hit %
5) Points (Damage)

So, for each category there is an optimal aircraft flight characteristic that affects it, for example.

1) K/D-The single biggest plane attribute that effects this statistic is speed, that is the ability to engage and disengage at will from virtually every other plane in the plane-set.

2) K/S-There are three plane attributes that effect this statistic, ammoload, gun-type and fuel-load. The more ammunition and/or cannons equates to a better K/S along with flight endurance provided for by fuel load.

3) K/T-There are two few factors that effect this statistic. First, is climbrate/acceleration, the quicker you can get to combat altitude the quicker you are in the fight, this pertains to re-alting mid-flight as well. Low altitude performance is the other factor, if your plane does not require you to be above the majority of your enemy for optimal performance you will require less time to get ailtitude and re-gain it mid-flight.

4) Hit Percentage- There are three plane characteristcs that effect this statistic, ballistics, gun mounting and nose-low deflection view. Typically, nose mounted wepaon systems are easier to hit with than wing mounted ones as convergence is not an issue. Certain munition types have poor ballistics and/or slow rates of fire, these will hurt your hit %.

Something alot of people never consider but I consider of paramount importance in choosing a fighter is nose-low deflection view. If a plane does not have it you are taking away from your repetoire a HUGE number of otherwise valuable high deflection snap-shot opportunities that would otherwise be kills in your pelt pouch. Having a plane with good nose-low deflection view means you will almost never be shooting 'blind', that is shooting at a target for deflection that is actually below the visual obstruction of your engine cowling, this improves your hit % dramatically.

5) Points-There are two characteristics that effects this statistic, ammoload and gun-type. Cannons and lots of 'em make you gather points faster. It would have been better to just call this category Damage. So, obviously the bigger your guns the more actual damage you are doing to a given target. For example, I know this will seem counter-intuitive but a burst from 6X50cals sufficient to remove a wing from a plane will do less damage and therefore garner less points than a burst of 20mm to remove the same wing. My guess is damage either transfers or damage beyond that required to destroy the plane part is still calculated even though passed its threshold for sustaining.

So, from this list of plane performance characteristics you can take a given plane and match it up against them. So, take a plane in the set and take these 9 factors that effect the 5 statistics that go into calculating fighter rank (2 repeat Ammoload and Gun-type) and give check marks where it satisfies the condition. We will use the La7 in this example:

1) Speed- The La7 is the fastest non-perk plane in the set, obviously it gets a CHECK.

2) Ammoload-While the La7 doesn't have a huge ammoload it's pretty plentifull. CHECK.

3) Gun-Type-Most fly the 3 cannon version, CHECK.

4) Fuel Load- The La7 has no capacity for drop-tanks and limited internal fuel, no check.

5) Climbrate- The La7 climbs great up to it's optimal performance altitude. CHECK

6) Low Altitude performance- The La7 is in hog heaven below 12k.CHECK

7) Gun Mounting- The La7 has nose mounted guns. CHECK

 Ballistics- The Russian cannon's ballistics are not great, no check

9) Nose Low Deflection View- La7 has exceptionally poor nose-low deflection view, most deflection shots will be 'blind'. no check

So, as you can see of the 9 characteristics the La7 gets a CHECK in 6 of them, fuel load, ballistics and lack of nose-low deflection view being the only drawbacks to optimal fighter rank. But, due to the La7's great low altitude performance it does not require as much fuel to fight effectively as other aircraft which must get and preserve higher altitudes to be effective.

Of note with this ranking system is one important factor. You will notice that Ammoload and Gun-Type appear twice but are only factored once. This means, relatively speaking, for optimal fighter rank, Ammoload and gun-type are of greater importance relative to any other factor by a 2/1 ratio. It is because of this fact you will notice in any given camp the predominance of cannon equipped planes. There is a huge bias toward cannon planes in the MA in AH2. This is a result of the above as well as the harder gunnery model.

As far as fighter rank is concerned this takes into account the aircraft. But, obviously, the pilot plays a huge part as well. If you take the plane's characteristics as it relates to the 5 statistics that effect fighter rank and combine that with the pilot's flying style as it pertains to the 5 statitistics that go into fighter rank you should be able to approximate anyone's 'potential' fighter rank. Briefly, let's evaluate the pilot characteristics that go into fighter rank just for fun:

1) K/D

a) Altitude-You'll get gang banged less and be able to choose your fights more. (within realistic parameters of your chosen ride's optimal performance altitude relative to the altitude of the enemy)

b) SA-You will get cherried less and avoid being gang banged more knowing when to engage and dis-engage.

c) Staying fast- Once you get slow you are committed, you lose the luxury of eggressing if the situation worsens, either by you getting outflown or by additional enemies engaging you mid-fight.

2) K/S

a) Vulching- Obviously this is the easiest kill in the game, you can rack these up very quickly if there are enemies dumb enough to up from a CAP'd field for you.

b) Re-arming-This will definately increase your K/S, but as is the case wth many of these factors there exists a mutual exclusivity with other factors. Re-arming is time consuming and somewhat dangerous as you remain vulnerable during the process, unable to defend youself.

3) K/T

a) Vulching- Obviously this is the easiest kill in the game, you can rack these up very quickly if there are enemies dumb enough to up from a CAP'd field for you.

b) Fight Low- Another paradox, fighting low and even dying helps your K/T as you do not spend time alting, re-alting or RTB'ing. Suicide warriors have the best of it in the K/T category. Base defenders upping from CAP'd or high CAP'd fields and CV defenders/attackers would fall loosely into this category. Also, the 'runway vulcher' who alts to 10-12k dives past 15 intervening cons to make a few passes up and down an enemy runway vulching before he inevitably gets wacked fits this general profile.

4) Hit Percentage

a) Vulching- A stationary or a slow moving, defenseless target on the ground is easy to hit.

b) Buff Hunting- Bigger target, easier to hit, simple.

c) Get in Close- Closer is better from a lethality and hit % point-of-view.

5) Points

a) Buff Hunting- Buffs take alot of damage therefore they give alot of points if you have the proper weaponry.

Notice 3 things. Firstly, a couple of factors on the pilot's factor list are congruent to factors on the plane factor list, staying fast and Low altitude flying and performance, so you would want to weight these more heavily. Secondly, vulching is the best way to achieve 3 of the 5 statistics with pilot factors, this explains the lust for the vulch in the MA. Conversely, those who do not vulch yet achieve a very high fighter rank are really accomplishing something, they are effectively competing with a severe handicap so must be doing the other things EXTREMELY well to compensate. Thirdly, notice buff hunting appears twice as a means to achieving better rank for both points and hit %. Buff hunting all but requires cannons, another reason cannons are the dominant weapon of choice in the MA.

Anyways, excuse the long post, I'm a statistics nut so enjoy analyzing such things, hope this helps, especially the newer players.

Zazen
 
 
 

[Anaxogoras]

Zazen, the attributes you say help for K/S are also beneficial for K/T.  Large gas tanks and large ammo loads allow you to stay in the fight longer and get more kills before you rtb.  Flying out to the combat area and rtb'ing are terrible for K/T, so getting the maximum number of kills in between is essential for a high K/T score.  I think I'm a better 109 pilot than 190 pilot, but I sure can get a better rank in the latter vs the former.

[Zazen13]

Zazen, the attributes you say help for K/S are also beneficial for K/T.  Large gas tanks and large ammo loads allow you to stay in the fight longer and get more kills before you rtb.  Flying out to the combat area and rtb'ing are terrible for K/T, so getting the maximum number of kills in between is essential for a high K/T score.  I think I'm a better 109 pilot than 190 pilot, but I sure can get a better rank in the latter vs the former.

That relationship would really depend on the plane and to an extent its climbrate. Take a plane like the Jug up with DT's and full gas and you will quickly discover greater flight endurance does not = a better K/T. Conversely, take a plane up with relatively low endurance, but with good low-alt speed and a great climbrate and you will quickly discover your K/T benefits accordingly. It's better to get 3 kills in 15 minutes of flight than 6 kills in an hour of flight.

[SmokinLoon]

Want to put that to the test?  You in any of the four 'uber rides' (LA 7, Spitfire Mk XVI, P-51D, N1K2) and me in a P-38J?  We'll see how successful an average pilot in one of the uber rides fairs against an experienced P-38J player.


ack-ack

I think you missed my point.  I didnt mention the P38, did I?  I mentioned the planes with the lowest ability in the hands of the "uber-vets" vs the average guys (like me) in the planes with the best abilities.  In the right hands, the P38 is an awesome platform.  It is not a plane that just anyone can hop into and run off and get kills with.  The player needs to learn the P38 just like they need to learn the Fw190, Bf109, P47, etc, and even the Me262 prior to excelling in said plane.  The three I mentioned are planes anyone can hop into because of their ease of use and their ability to XXX very well.  Unlike many people, I dont think the P51D is a plane that is easy to fly.  I believe it is popular because of its legendary staus more than anything.  It certainly doesnt do well unless the little "quirks" are learned.

Oh... and yeah, just for the fun of things I'll take the challenge.  Dont expect me to follow you up the rope though.  I'll take the spiral staircase.     Eventually, you'll be kickin yer legs to get the mementum back because I'll be higher and faster and on your six within 400yrds.    We'll start at 15k, and make one single head on pass real gentlemen like and then... TO THE DEATH!    

[Ack-Ack]

I think you missed my point.  I didnt mention the P38, did I?  I mentioned the planes with the lowest ability in the hands of the "uber-vets" vs the average guys (like me) in the planes with the best abilities.  In the right hands, the P38 is an awesome platform.  It is not a plane that just anyone can hop into and run off and get kills with.  The player needs to learn the P38 just like they need to learn the Fw190, Bf109, P47, etc, and even the Me262 prior to excelling in said plane.  The three I mentioned are planes anyone can hop into because of their ease of use and their ability to XXX very well.  Unlike many people, I dont think the P51D is a plane that is easy to fly.  I believe it is popular because of its legendary staus more than anything.  It certainly doesnt do well unless the little "quirks" are learned.

Oh... and yeah, just for the fun of things I'll take the challenge.  Dont expect me to follow you up the rope though.  I'll take the spiral staircase.     Eventually, you'll be kickin yer legs to get the mementum back because I'll be higher and faster and on your six within 400yrds.    We'll start at 15k, and make one single head on pass real gentlemen like and then... TO THE DEATH!    

Why would I need to rope someone I could easily out maneuver?


ack-ack

[1pLUs44]

Hey All,

I upped an LA7 and got 5 kills.  2nd time a meager 3.  Oh did I mention my pilot skills are average at best.  This is more times than not the average for even me.

I am wondering, other than points, is there a way the plane upped can be factored into the pilot ranking?

If I flew an LA7 (or Spit16, 109-K4, Tempest, F4U-C etc.) all the time it would give the impression that I am among the best.  Like you I've seen some pretty modest planes flown by sharp pilots shoot those perk plane "Aces" right outta the sky.

How can pilot ranking come in line with actual skill?

WT

Find a plane that everyone doesnt want to fly because they think it's too hard to fly. Get really really good at it, and then just start droppin them out of the sky. Learn your ACM as much as you can as that is about 90% of it, and learn the feel for your airplane. When I flew the P-39 every day, I learned what to do and not to do. I learned it's best maneuvers and worst maneuvers, and I learned what reverses to do and not to do. (sadly though, after a 2 week break, I lost all of my gunnery   )

[WarTooth]

>> Ever see any of the "uber" guys land the 6+ kills in a P40B or 109E-4?

Now that is a good point because on average this is not common.  It happens, but definitely a rarity.

I tend to see the "uber" guys fly uber planes though occasionally they'll have a token Ki-61 or F6 flight.

Just some observations.

[Vudak]

I think you missed my point.  I didnt mention the P38, did I?  I mentioned the planes with the lowest ability in the hands of the "uber-vets" vs the average guys (like me) in the planes with the best abilities.  In the right hands, the P38 is an awesome platform.  It is not a plane that just anyone can hop into and run off and get kills with.  The player needs to learn the P38 just like they need to learn the Fw190, Bf109, P47, etc, and even the Me262 prior to excelling in said plane.  The three I mentioned are planes anyone can hop into because of their ease of use and their ability to XXX very well.  Unlike many people, I dont think the P51D is a plane that is easy to fly.  I believe it is popular because of its legendary staus more than anything.  It certainly doesnt do well unless the little "quirks" are learned.

Oh... and yeah, just for the fun of things I'll take the challenge.  Dont expect me to follow you up the rope though.  I'll take the spiral staircase.     Eventually, you'll be kickin yer legs to get the mementum back because I'll be higher and faster and on your six within 400yrds.    We'll start at 15k, and make one single head on pass real gentlemen like and then... TO THE DEATH!    

Are you really average though?  Because to be blunt the average player is terrible.  Average in here does not mean C work, it means more like D- in a 1v1.

Take an average player, and give them the best ride you can think of, and give the good stick a horrible one, and the average guy might win many of the fights...  But if I were to guess how he'd do that, it would be by running the good stick out of fuel - not by actually shooting them down.