Fill me in on CNG for cars.. Where? How?

[Hangtime]

Seems to me, locally at least (NE US), that there's just no infrastructure for CNG in vehicles.. few if any retail 'CNG' pumps, no availability of vehicles in dealerships..

How much infrastructure change would it take? Whats involved in getting a station set up? Are there 'kits' to convert existing vehicles?

Seems to me folks would jump at it if they could get at the fuel without going cross-county or out of the area..

Thoughts?

[mg1942]

http://www.myphill.com/

[mg1942]

http://www.myphill.com/media/MotorWeek.wmv

[Holden McGroin]

Seems to me that for local driving, all you need is a compressor, a pressure cylinder and a natural gas line to your garage.

Have a little compressor (100 w) to take gas from your line and fill your garage cylinder bank to.. IDK.. 50 psi over whatever the max storage pressure in you car and every couple of weeks or whenever, you transfer the gas to your car.

Other than safety considerations, that's all you would need for a local fill up, and if done clandestinely (sp?) you could bypass highway tax.

Scale it up for a commercial filling station.

The changing of you car would be a bigger task it seems to me, but there are fleet vehicles that are already converted, so no trailblazing is required..

  

[Mr No Name]

I wonder if you can have dual fuels?

[Holden McGroin]

VW Introduces Dual-Fuel CNG Passat at Geneva
6 March 2008
 
The Passat Estate TSI EcoFuel.
Volkswagen unveiled the dual-fuel Passat Estate TSI EcoFuel concept—a car powered by either natural gas or conventional gasoline—at the Geneva Motor Show. In mainland Europe the vehicle will be introduced in both saloon and estate bodystyles before the end of the year. Sales of the vehicle in the UK are yet to be confirmed.

yup

[indy007]

Have a little compressor (100 w) to take gas from your line and fill your garage cylinder bank to.. IDK.. 50 psi over whatever the max storage pressure in you car and every couple of weeks or whenever, you transfer the gas to your car.  

Little compressor?   If you ever need to fill up quick and go somewhere, you'd be screwed. Tank pressures are along the lines of 2900-3200psi in a typical cylinder. In a car, you'd probably want to use a fiber-wrapped bottle like they do on most paintball guns (but much larger and more expensive). Those average 4500psi, with special ones getting 5k+. You also need a booster pump to fill it up quickly, and while they're not horribly expensive, they're usually not cheap either.

The bottles can also be dangerous as hell. Pierce a glass wrapped bottle, and it's not that bad. They hold together and the pressure bleeds out quickly. Knock the regulator/valve off of that bottle, and it goes like its shot out of a cannon.

[Holden McGroin]

Little compressor?   If you ever need to fill up quick and go somewhere, you'd be screwed.

That's why you would have garage tanks.  The little compressor fills the garage tanks over a few days, and you fill your car from the tanks.

Tank pressures are along the lines of 2900-3200psi in a typical cylinder. In a car, you'd probably want to use a fiber-wrapped bottle like they do on most paintball guns (but much larger and more expensive). Those average 4500psi, with special ones getting 5k+. You also need a booster pump to fill it up quickly, and while they're not horribly expensive, they're usually not cheap either.

The bottles can also be dangerous as hell. Pierce a glass wrapped bottle, and it's not that bad. They hold together and the pressure bleeds out quickly. Knock the regulator/valve off of that bottle, and it goes like its shot out of a cannon.

So? tank in the car, same problem.  More dangerous than a statically mounted tank.

That's one reason I added the caveat, "Other than safety considerations,"

>>Clic on the McFillerino path that mg1942 posted, and tell me how big you think her compressor is.  It's hanging on the wall behind her.

[SPKmes]

CNG is exceptionally hard on engines (ignition components), gets you nowhere except to the next fueling station (in the 80's that was) and to be honest more of a nuisance than anything. The costs used to be large for conversion...However 20 odd years has passed now and perhaps things have changed. LPG is still the better dual fuel. LPG Conversion costs are usually re-couped after a year and they now have auto switching so you have no need to worry about the change over (not that switching a dial was ever a big pain).Most cases petrol is for start up only then switches to the gas with very little power loss.

[indy007]

That's one reason I added the caveat, "Other than safety considerations,"

Missed that bit. I'm just paranoid after my last string of accidents.

>>Clic on the McFillerino path that mg1942 posted, and tell me how big you think her compressor is.  It's hanging on the wall behind her.

It's 800w @ 240v. I can't seem to find what the car's tanks are. I'm going through the Honda GX site now, and can't find anything about its stored pressure. I did find where it says it takes the Phill unit 16 hours to fill up from empty... which means it's not booster. Lets be nice and say with moderate driving, you're using 5kwH to run the pump nightly (it'd be 12.8kWh or so if you run the tank out daily). So 5kwh x 30 days, 150kwH/month. That's a 10% jump in my electricity bill, not sure how it would stack up to others though.

Still has a ways to go. With that kind of performance, why not just go electric and save some hassles? With a micro-generation setup at home, it'd be cheaper in the long run, and you'd actually be able to sell the car when you're done with it.

[Tac]

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[mora]

There are kits available, but most of them are not legal for street use in the US or Europe. I'd suspect the fines over there would be quite hefty if you were caught. Legal kits with emission certificates are very expensive.

[SD67]

My Fairmont is dual fuel. It is LPG/PULP however
With both tanks full I can expect an average of 1300km (800miles) range on highway driving. It cost half as much to fill the LPG tank as it does the petrol tank. Depending on where I fill up, it can cost only $40 to fill the LPG tank and that will take me about 600-650km (370-400 miles) on the highway.

[john9001]

i think LPG tanks are only about 230 PSI.

[john9001]

There are kits available, but most of them are not legal for street use in the US or Europe. I'd suspect the fines over there would be quite hefty if you were caught. Legal kits with emission certificates are very expensive.

why would they not be legal? they burn very clean.