Author Topic: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.  (Read 4141 times)

Offline BnZ

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1. In observing fights between pairs of bases, I have noticed that much more often than the fight ending because one side gradually grinds down and pushes back the other to establish true air (or ground) superiority, it ends when someone on one side or the other ups a formation of Lancasters, B24s, or B17s and bombs the crap out of the hangars. This is unless they start out by bombing the hangars, in which case the fight never develops in the first place.

2. These heavies were meant for devastating industry/cities from high altitudes. The bomb load of a formation, combined with the easy accuracy of the level-bombing sites at lower altitudes, makes them almost ridiculous overkill for hangar dropping. They also render fighter-bombers, which are historically more along the lines of what you would expect to be used on such targets, almost superfluous by comparison.

3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable. Whereas in reality, daylight bombing with unescorted bombers proved to be disastrously costly, even with large formations, in the AHII MA it is much easier to land 3 kills of fighters than it is to hunt buffs, and everyone knows it. Thus they most often go unintercepted. To start with, a formation can under ideal conditions point up to 18 .50 caliber machine guns at a single fighter. (Fighter pilots, unlike buff pilots, do not have the option of automatically upping with 2 wingmen to help them shoot down buffs). This is a situation that makes strafing WWs look like a good bet by comparison. Because there are no convergence issues, and because a flight of buffs on autopilot is an artificially rock-solid gun platform, the effective range of all these guns is typically at least half-again that of the fighter attacking them. There is no attacking angle that allows a fighter to really take a shot at the buffs without giving them an equally good shot at him. Front-quarter or head-on attacks work for expert shots in birds bristling with cannon, but not too often for average attackers in more lightly armed planes. Furthermore, the most heavily armed planes, like 110s, 190 A8s, Mossies, etc, are not nearly as common as planes more suited to a fighter-on-fighter role, and tend to climb slowly, a definite handicap when asked to intercept buffs on short notice.

Basically, the result of all this is that unescorted buffs, which should be a prized target, are in fact avoided and usually succeed in their mission. The role of escort is almost superfluous, it could almost be said that escorts in the AH MA basically just steal kills from the buff gunners.

4. My solution to the problem? Consider disabling/perking formations for the heaviest buffs. This would tend to reduce both destructive capability and defensive firepower. Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns.

Offline Mak333

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2008, 01:07:30 PM »
"Perking formations" has already been discussed many many many times and goes back a long ways.  Some are for it, some are against it.
Mak

Offline BnZ

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2008, 01:10:58 PM »
"Perking formations" has already been discussed many many many times and goes back a long ways.  Some are for it, some are against it.

What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.

Offline E25280

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 01:17:23 PM »
What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.
Better and simpler for who?  Certainly not the buff drivers.

Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction.  Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.
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Offline dkff49

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2008, 01:42:14 PM »
I will admint that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.

The hardest stick I have ever seen at defeating buffs is snailman (aka lusche). I am sure he will pitch in here soon anyway. I have watched him take my formation apart with no hits on him from me. I am far fromthe best gunner in the game but I am not poor at it either. The way I have seen him do it is to come down from directly over top of the bombers. It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees. Attacking buffs from this angle definitely requires patience but it is definitely not impossible to kill buffsin  a formation.

I say leave formation flying the way it is though I do hate it when someone comes in a bust up the furball with them.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 01:46:04 PM »
Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent  them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.

I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2008, 01:48:23 PM »
Uh oh, here it comes: you're a whiner because I don't want to meet an argument head-on.  Seriously, the "whiner" label is so overused at this forum it's about to become a badge of honor.

I don't have a strong opinion about this thread yet, but I'm entertaining both sides and would like a little time to think before the slurs start flying.  Thank you.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2008, 01:49:42 PM »
It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees.

Yes, this does work. The inherent problem in the AH MA is a matter of the time it takes for setup between these attacks and the short distance the remaining 2 or 1 buffs have to go to do their work. Also, most players in the MA do not set out in terms of plane choice or altitude to hunt buffs specifically, this is another factor that tends to give them a free reign.

Offline Stang

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 01:49:45 PM »
Bombers by themselves should be dead meat.  However if that were true here, no one would fly them.  Organized bomber missions are rare, and to make them viable they have to be able to compete on their own.  So in that respect I understand and accept it as necessary.

If CT is ever released though, this should be adressed.  Large buff groups in scenarios are hard enough to tackle but with a bunch of head hunting AI gunners it will be rediculous.  That is if CT ever comes out...

Offline Sloehand

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2008, 01:50:53 PM »
Killing buffs is not really easy, but it's not hard either, except against the very best buff drivers.  I kill full formations all the time.  When I don't, it's usually because I didn't take the patience needed to recover into proper position before attacking.

I think it's just hard enough that a good interceptor has to work at it, but it's not impossible to be very successful at it if you learn how to do it properly.

As for stopping them before they drop, again there is a way to tactically neutralize their attack, but I'm not going to tell anyone how.  You need to figure it out for yourself.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 01:51:26 PM »
We got some guys who can slaughter a Buff formation with the skill of a surgeon. Even with an accomplished Buff gunner on board they can do it. So if they can do it that means anybody else who wants to make the training effort can do it also. I cant do it cause I haven't made the effort to learn/practice how. But its on "me" not the game.

I love the heavy bombers in the game. If theres one thing I'd like to see changed is this Lanc-stuka thing, "which is just silly". A Heavy bomber should have to have a certain % of horizontal stability to be allowed to release bombs.
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Offline Skoal77

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2008, 02:00:48 PM »
I agree with the thread starter.

Being in a buff these days is more like playing that old school game - 'Asteroid'.  It's pretty easy to shoot fighters down, especially the ones that slowly creep up on your six as they gain altitude.

Offline APDrone

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2008, 02:14:44 PM »
Also, most players in the MA do not set out in terms of plane choice or altitude to hunt buffs specifically, this is another factor that tends to give them a free reign.

So you admit that the bombers have free reign to wreck hangars because you and your countrymen/women refuse to take the appropriate aircraft to prevent that from happening?

Seems that leaving your hangars vulnerable is a conscious choice you make.  If you want your hangars intact, defend them. 

Not going to get a lot of sympathy from me.  I will up a 190A-8 and climb to an intercept course, praying to find a buff formation to decimate.. only to end up getting raped by a typhie, spit, pony, or LGay..

Way back when, bombers were single units and we got trashed by attackers.  People quit flying bombers.. too easy to kill.

With the formations enabled, that levelled the field a bit.    The good and patient sticks learned how to attack them and I've even encountered a couple of pilots that killed all 3 of my B17s with a pony.

... Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns.

If you are stupid and impatient enough to attack bombers from the dead 6 ( they call it 'dead' for a reason ) then you deserve to die.  Know when to fold 'em and know when to run.

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Offline oTRALFZo

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2008, 02:34:40 PM »
All in the eyes of the beholder.
I am all for the buff formations. 90% of the time, you'll see me in lancs destroying CVs and leveling Fields. ( waiting for the shaking fists and yells of "toolshedder" to arrive). but its what is considered my fun in the game.

I can see your point about being frustrated going after these formations and getting ripped apart after trying to get co-alt with them, but also remember that its not THAT easy for a guy driving buffs to complete his mission. what you need to do is change your tactics if it bothers you so much.
2 guys I pray that aren't within icon range of me when I'm in buffs is 1) Lushe and 2) Skatsr.  They rip me apart every single time I confront them. they wait until I get in my bombsight and they always attack from the top and saw my wings off. works everytime unless I can ping em up and pray that they have some kills to land before my formation is annihilated.
In the meantime while your figuring out your tactics..if bombers are still a problem for you, theres 3 words out there for you..PORK PORK PORK. very easy to do.

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Offline avionix

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2008, 02:40:36 PM »
It's pretty easy to shoot fighters down, especially the ones that slowly creep up on your six as they gain altitude.

But there, is the problem.  That is no way to attack a buff.  I love it when guys try to fly up my 6 when in a bomber.  They are easy kills then.  But, to perk a formation?  No, leave it the way it is.
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