Author Topic: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.  (Read 4170 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #150 on: October 08, 2008, 12:31:10 AM »

Bomber looked different on dar historically... your poorly conncealed insult is noted.

No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #151 on: October 08, 2008, 12:36:38 AM »
No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.

The contrails, and the fact that the Americans bombed your factories yesterday, the day before, and every clear day for as long as anyone could remember, was a pretty good HINT to what those wall-to-wall radar signatures were.  :lol

Offline Steve

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #152 on: October 08, 2008, 12:38:15 AM »
No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.

Are you saying that 3 bombers in formation would look the exact same on radar as one fighter?
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Offline stephen

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #153 on: October 08, 2008, 12:47:24 AM »
Hi bombers are responsible for alot of death and a B-17 at 20,000 when your climbing up to him is raw hell to over come, but if you take that extra couple of minutes to get  5000ft highter than the guy, the outcome can be very diffrent.

I like FW-190d's because they climb well, and K-4's for the same reason, (plus the 30mm)
It's all about setting the guy up for pass, making a quick accurate shot at a vulnerable spot, and getting back out of range to set up on him again.

Though i've met bomber pilots in the air that can pull off some amazing deflection shots, even when im jinking like a mad man, and way out at 1.5...

« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 12:50:25 AM by stephen »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #154 on: October 08, 2008, 12:50:08 AM »
What I am saying is that radar systems in WWII didnt work like you might think. For one thing the 'dot' you see in the MA didnt exist on radar scopes then. The radar systems in WWII (particularly during BOB) worked by detecting doppler shifts in transmitted waves and a spike on the operators scope meant objects were headed in his direction or a valley would indicate receding objects. A radar operator in those days would never know things like numbers or size of aircraft and thats about as clearly as it can be stated. At the outbreak of WWII only one system was capable of detecting aircraft beyond about three kilometers and fortunately the British had it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 12:51:43 AM by Chalenge »
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Offline stephen

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #155 on: October 08, 2008, 12:53:06 AM »
Lotta ground based observation was used to detect numbers, and radar was like a big fiinger pointing out where the baddies where.

I believe they could detect very large formations, and figure a rough estimate of alt however.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #156 on: October 08, 2008, 12:54:36 AM »
Early radar systems were useless for determining altitude.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #157 on: October 08, 2008, 01:42:14 AM »
Early radar systems were useless for determining altitude.

I didn't say anything about dots... I asked if a formation of buffs would have the exact same signature as a lone fighter.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #158 on: October 08, 2008, 01:49:58 AM »
There was no way to identify plane types during WWII without visual observation of the flight. Radar equipment of the time could not distinguish between a B29 and a Me109.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:51:40 AM by Chalenge »
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Offline 715

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #159 on: October 08, 2008, 02:51:44 AM »
Wikipedia says Chain Home could detect range, direction, and altitude.  Also a good operator could estimate size of the formation from the shape of the return signal.

Offline Furball

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #160 on: October 08, 2008, 02:52:08 AM »
More on radar here: -

Chain Home Defence Radar: http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/ch/chainhome.htm

Ground Control Intercept Radar: http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/gci/gci.htm

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Offline BnZ

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #161 on: October 08, 2008, 09:15:23 AM »
There was no way to identify plane types during WWII without visual observation of the flight. Radar equipment of the time could not distinguish between a B29 and a Me109.

The Luftwaffe could be fairly certain that those hundreds of signatures coming from the direction of England at high altitude weren't Me109s though.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #162 on: October 08, 2008, 12:23:15 PM »
Of course they werent 109s and also radar had changed by the end of the war. Not only could they fix positions more accurately but the 50cm units of the FuMG 39 Wuerzburg D models could fix altitude but they still could not identify aircraft types.

In the arena you should just use a little of the same type of common sense and you will find the bombers.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #163 on: October 08, 2008, 12:28:11 PM »
Wikipedia says Chain Home could detect range, direction, and altitude.  Also a good operator could estimate size of the formation from the shape of the return signal.

There ya go.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.
« Reply #164 on: October 08, 2008, 12:38:57 PM »
The Luftwaffe could be fairly certain that those hundreds of signatures coming from the direction of England at high altitude weren't Me109s though.

Current military radar can't even classify the type aircraft.  There's still some mystery left, even with todays technology.

The Chain Home system used by the British relied heavily on visual spotters to confirm the position and type of aircraft in each mass return.  Until the spotters V-ID'd the aircraft, only then did the RAF know if they were facing massed bombers, massed fighters, or a combination of both.

The Germans may have seen multiple blobs, but they couldn't tell you which blob was a group of fighters and which blob was a group of bombers from the radar return.  They had to use other techniques to categorize what they thought the returns were.  They studied the history of the return, and if it conformed to the profile that matched the bomber stream, they categorized it as a bomber stream, but even this was an imprecise means with which to identify returns.  

Case in point: In Spring 1945, a few P-51 groups launched a massive formation of fighters that bunched up into a tight formation, and flew at typical bomber altitudes and speeds.  The Germans launched a massive group of fighters to intercept what they thought were unescorted bombers. (I don't remember the specifics of the units, but IIRC, this involved Yeager's group so you could cross reference this with that, if you so desire).

As several have mentioned here, watching the clipboard map will give you an indication of the bombers approaching, if you look for the tell-tell signs, typical profiles, etc.  Its not perfect, but it's a relative match for the radar capabilities of the opposing sides during WWII.

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