pony versus K4

[Agent360]

     To turn better in A p51 or anyplane for that matter! Use throttle,.... Chop it when first turning then slowly accelerate through the turn! That's one way. Also use flaps while doing that to ... turn flaps when first going into the turn then when coming out of the turn .... turn them off! Learn the different positions of the flaps and what degree of turn for which setting 25%, 50%,75% exc.... Also don't flat turn use angels to out turn your opponent like cutting there curricle in half. If you need help my call sign is mercy I'm in the DA and TA allot I would be glad to get more into it with you if you want too! Also Look on aces high website under training and see what others have written for help on this topic and talk to trainer if the problems still keep happening.<S>

MeRcY

P.S. and try always to stay vertical at first!

Ummmm this is not the best way to fight a K4 with a pony.

First .....NEVER I mean NEVER cut your throttle in a p51 against a K4. Especially if you are on the deck and below 300mph. And especially if you already have speed (over 300 mph) If you use flaps use ONE NOTCH only. I repeat ONE Notch and only when you are fast. Otherwise look for an exit to gain speed by GOING STRAIT. Use every bit of alt. That means if you are 300 feet shallow dive with wep as long as you can getting as much speed as possibe before you have to turn. When you do turn pop ONE NOTCH of flaps for the turn and bring that back when you go STRAIT again. The object is to avoid the guns and keep getting speed. If you do anything other than get speed you will be killed. Everytime the K4 makes a turn you turn the other way and go for more speed.

Second....DO NOT go verticle with a K4 on the deck if less than 300mph. Use flat turns to avoid the 30mm using that one notch of flaps. Get flaps in fast and get speed. Speed is the only thing that will save you.

Third.....Your oppurtunity to gain an equal advantage is to get seperation as fast as possible. If you can get the K4 to overshoot behind you meaning get some angle off tail immedialty turn into that and keep GOING STRAIT. Every time you do this you will get more seperation.

The K4 will attempt to get on top at every turn. The counter to this is to level out turn the other way and get more speed.

You will never be able to out climb the K4 on the deck so you must get speed...enough to out turn him with the one notch of flaps and still keep seperation going. Once you have some speed just keep it going. Now you can make SHORT yo-yo verticle turns to keep your speed up.

If things go right you should be getting good shots. If you get the chance to get away extend to 1.5k and come back as fast as you can.

[Widewing]

Been watching too much History Channel?

Maybe, but in the real world the Mustang wasn't the dog we have here. Our P-51D has porked flaps. Moreover, about the time the P-51D arrived, the 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel. With that, it was faster than the 109K-4 at almost all altitudes. Add to that; G-suits were entering service with the AAF, and were fully deployed by late summer.


My regards,

Widewing

[Agent360]

I posted in the wish list forum about a perked ords system.

I never though about G suits or higher octane fuel.

That would be a most awsome addition to the game.

G suites and high octane fuel...wow. But the catch is you have to have perks to use them. Think about it.

[PFactorDave]

Just curious here...

If the 109K4 outclasses the P51D in nearly every category, why is the Pony ENY value 8 and the 109K4 ENY value 20?

[Anaxogoras]

For multiple reasons:

• Ordinance capacity
• Ammunition capacity
• Fuel time
• Ballistics

• High speed handling

In all of these respects the 51D outclasses the 109K-4.  I think the difficulty of aiming the Mk 108 30mm cannon vs the ease of aiming the .50 cal browning might be the biggest reason of all.

[Steve]

The K4 is simply a better dogfighter than the pony. Only it's low ammo for the 30mm keeps it from being uber in the MA. Adonai somehow  thinks that because it doesn't have the views of a pony, that 13 yrs olds fly the pony. He's not being honest. The K4 is a much better plane.

1v1, and low and slow, the pony loses any performance edge it may have had on the k4. If you are in a 51 and caught low by a k4 your best bet is to get aggressive and go after him.... out fly the guy in the other plane. At this point the slower the fight gets the better. The 51 pilot is in a bad spot but has one trick left. At absolute edge of stall speed, the pony is more stable that the k4. If you can get the k4 to slow down with you, you have a chance to kill him or slip away. If it comes to this, get all the flaps out you can to get nice and slow, then force the k4 to maneuver for a shot... if you do it just right and the k4 cooperates you may be able to get him to stall a wing or snap roll it from torque... then decide if you can convert this into a  gun solution or saddle, or if you can get clean and slip away.

[Anaxogoras]

Maybe, but in the real world the Mustang wasn't the dog we have here. Our P-51D has porked flaps. Moreover, about the time the P-51D arrived, the 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel. With that, it was faster than the 109K-4 at almost all altitudes. Add to that; G-suits were entering service with the AAF, and were fully deployed by late summer.


My regards,

Widewing

So the normal top speed of 437mph we normally see for the P-51D is in error?

[humble]

This is one of those situations where you have to be aggressive and force your opponent into making mistakes. Or die trying.

As I was reading this thread that was my thought entirely...

One of the key variables in the game is making the shift from exploiting the plane to exploiting the situation and if possible the other pilot. I'm far from an uber stick but even at my skill level I can usually force a good fight 1 on 1 in almost anything vs almost anything. Thats far from saying I can beat anyone in anything....but I can normally force a fight that demands a pretty good performance from the other guy.

I love the pony and the B is a favored ride when I put the A-20 in the barn. The biggest issue the pony has (IMO) is it's inability to regain energy. While it will hold E reasonably well once you bleed it you need air under the wings or your dead meat.

So in baseball terms your going to need to be a control pitcher without overpowering stuff. Your not going to beat the 109 even up so you need to manage the fight and work the other pilot. Based on that my comments are as follows....

1) engage aggressively and immediately if your at a disadvantage (as agent said 1 notch only). If the 109 driver is lazy and a front quarter shot is there take it (this is not a "HO")...make him think about what your doing. If he's any good he'll take the high ground, if he's really good he wont give you much room. If you get a B&Z guy then your probably ok...if its a "good" stick your hard pressed if its somebody like agent you'll feel like he's your proctologist awful quickly...

Going with your worst case scenario your dealing with an aggressive 109 flying the vertical obliques in a tight e to angles fight. To me the most critical aspect is trying to force a vertical 2 circle fight where you can maintain enough E and angles to pull up into his attacks and threaten him if he tries to go back up into an early vertical...once the 109 has gotten the high ground and solid rear aspect your most likely toast. If you can convert a 2 circle fight to a rolling scissors I think the pony has a decent chance . The biggest mistake I see in any plane is the decision to try and convert an inferior position (and/or plane) into a one circle fight because the pilot thinks that its the only form of "dog fight" there is. Once a 109 can force a 1 circle fight on a pony then the pony is dead unless he gets very lucky...

[Agent360]

The K4 is simply a better dogfighter than the pony. Only it's low ammo for the 30mm keeps it from being uber in the MA. Adonai somehow  thinks that because it doesn't have the views of a pony, that 13 yrs olds fly the pony. He's not being honest. The K4 is a much better plane.

1v1, and low and slow, the pony loses any performance edge it may have had on the k4. If you are in a 51 and caught low by a k4 your best bet is to get aggressive and go after him.... out fly the guy in the other plane. At this point the slower the fight gets the better. The 51 pilot is in a bad spot but has one trick left. At absolute edge of stall speed, the pony is more stable that the k4. If you can get the k4 to slow down with you, you have a chance to kill him or slip away. If it comes to this, get all the flaps out you can to get nice and slow, then force the k4 to maneuver for a shot... if you do it just right and the k4 cooperates you may be able to get him to stall a wing or snap roll it from torque... then decide if you can convert this into a  gun solution or saddle, or if you can get clean and slip away.

This is very good advice from Steve. He is one of the best p51 pilots in the game.

It is true that the p51 can fight slow with flaps in a rolling scissor. The problem is that the K4 can just point the nose up and go verticle at will. At speeds below 150mph in a tight rolling scissor the pony can keep up in the turns but the K4 can go up more and the pony can't. But if you force the K4 to go up on an overshoot I think you have better chances of winning if you point nose down and try to get seperation and speed. If the K4 catches you again before you have had time to get the seperation then hard maneuver again with flaps as Steve said.

But you don't have much time to keep doing this before the K4 rolls in for a shot. So your goal should be to hard maneuver with flaps and keep looking for any oppurtunity to seperate. A d400 shot is still pretty hard for most K4 pilots...even me. If you can get atleast d600 and even better d800 seperation you have enoungh room to turn into the K4...ie create a 2 circle fight (as humble states). If you can get the merge 2 circle fight going you can keep extending away a little each time the K4 turns.

I just don't think you should try to go verticle when your this slow. You will wind up with no options. Again its better to stay flatter and stay faster. When the K4 goes vert he will be stalling at the top at 50 to 80 mph and then stalling the wings to flip over and come down. This takes time. The time you need to slip away more and more. Just jink some to avoid the guns pass and keep it up. If you live past the first 2 or 3 gun passes you have a very good change of getting to a better position.

A few weeks back Steve and I were on diff countries and ran into each other but we werent paying attention to where we were and we did not know we were fighting each other...lol. I dove on Steve (p51) from about 3k. He was at 1k trying to escape from the hord after he made a kill. I caught him at 1k and at about 175mph or so. I was about to deliver the shot and he reelled out some flaps and flicked away causing me to go up and over. A close and slow rolling scissor ensued. He played it perfectly doing just what he said above. He was able to use the 1k of alt to keep his speed up enough to maneuver with flaps. I wound up overshooting several times and he took of some parts. Then it was equal because I was a cripple. The next scissor I couldn't pull out at the bottom (missin elev) after I had gone vert for a stall turn. In the end Steve gets me by auger.

The reason he won is because he didnt just keep flat scissoring and he didnt just try to purly out turn me either. He used shallow diving and yo-yo turns to keep me from getting a good shot and he kept his speed up just enough to allow him to use his flaps without loosing all his energy at once.

[Widewing]

So the normal top speed of 437mph we normally see for the P-51D is in error?

437 mph reflected one test using 100-130 octane fuel. There are other tests that show speeds in excess of 440 mph in the lower octane fuel. Running 150 octane, the P-51 was cleared for 75" MAP.

Speed:



Climb




My regards,

Widewing

[Anaxogoras]

Those charts hardly show the P-51 with 150 octane fuel being faster than a 109K-4.  Rather, they give the appearance of their maximum speeds being about equal.  The later 109K-4 props yielded speeds in excess of 450mph.

You have a point though.  Our P-51D seems to be an early model without 150 octane fuel, in other words the worst representative of the series.  There are a lot of aircraft in AH that are victims in a similar way: off the top of my head, the Spitfire Mk V and 109G-6.

[Widewing]

Those charts hardly show the P-51 with 150 octane fuel being faster than a 109K-4.  Rather, they give the appearance of their maximum speeds being about equal.  The later 109K-4 props yielded speeds in excess of 450mph.

You have a point though.  Our P-51D seems to be an early model without 150 octane fuel, in other words the worst representative of the series.  There are a lot of aircraft in AH that are victims in a similar way: off the top of my head, the Spitfire Mk V and 109G-6.

Look at the charts again. At low altitude, where we fight in the game, the Mustang is significantly faster. Look at the the climb rates as well.

Not only do we have the lowest horsepower P-51D, we have the fastest 109K-4 (452 mph) version. I'd like to see the 150 octane fuel available for a moderate perk price (just like certain bombs and weapons should be perked), but only for those fighters that served in the ETO (P-47D-25, P-47D-40, P-38J, P-38L, P-51B and P-51D. Likewise for the late mark Spitfires. Adjust the perk value based upon ENY.

I know that the flap issues will be addressed eventually. Those issues being some aircraft with horrendous flaps and others with magical uber flaps. Once that is aligned, I believe we will see performance more in line with war time reality. That won't end the whining, but it will make it a lot tougher to make a valid case.

I'm not sure I would want to see G-suits modeled. Given a 1g to 2g blackout threshold advantage, I think it may unbalance the game. It did contribute to the imbalance in the war, no doubt. Should a 109 pull 5.5g at the ragged edge of blackout, but the P-51 behind can pull 7g, it'll greatly effect the result.

My regards,

Widewing

[Steve]

It is true that the p51 can fight slow with flaps in a rolling scissor. The problem is that the K4 can just point the nose up and go verticle at will.

Yup, you are right.  The 51 pilot has to get some cooperation from the k4. If the k4 sees this move coming he can go up and reset at will, just like you mentioned.    

Fortunately, that low and slow pony is target that's hard to resist.  

I have been told by people that I have surprised them by being aggressive; that I initally catch them off guard because all they expect from a pony pilot, even when cornered on the deck,  is for the 51 to run. I think this works to a 51's advantage, even though it is not related to plane performance.(maybe this is just in my head)

I've gotten plenty of kills where a plane will half heartedly make a run at me then turn partially or even completely away because it seem like they assume I am going to run, only to have me turn and kill them/saddle before they know I'm back in.  Also, there's been times where I've simply left; I'll avoid giving a gang a kill if I can help it.

[Anaxogoras]

Oh!  Very true!  Those P-51s would run down the La-7.

[Steve]

Oh!  Very true!  Those P-51s would run down the La-7.

*drools*