pony versus K4

[uptown]

I was caught low fighting another 109 and a K4 dove in on my six. I couldn't out turn, out run, or out climb him. I did manage to get him to use most of his ammo up in the scissors but he ended up getting me with his last 15 rounds The only way i know of to get the edge on him is in a dive but being on the deck took that option off the table.

So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck?

[Rich46yo]

I was caught low fighting another 109 and a K4 dove in on my six. I couldn't out turn, out run, or out climb him. I did manage to get him to use most of his ammo up in the scissors but he ended up getting me with his last 15 rounds The only way i know of to get the edge on him is in a dive but being on the deck took that option off the table.

So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck?

 Theres a reason why almost every Mustang you see below 5k is usually running for its life.

[BaldEagl]

So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck?

Given equal pilots... nothing.  The K4 eats ponies and spits them out in a slow fight on the deck.

[Shane]

fly better, using all the tricks you know.

[Adonai]

Theres a reason why almost every Mustang you see below 5k is usually running for its life.

Honestly there is nothing you can do, any decent 109 stick will stradle on you even in a merge and you are done with.
Even with a honest merge, co-alt 2k - you can neither outclimb, or out accelerate a 109, best you can hope is keep your speed
and just zoom on by and say No sir! Now if you have ALOT of E, you can grind the 109 down and perhaps hope he makes a genuine mistake
of blowing off to much E or in worse case scenario - reverse and give you a shot.

Best case scenario - hard-deck yourself at 5k cause once you have a 109k4 back there, best you can do is run and hope he
doesn't have wep for long.

I do believe both 51/109 are equal on wep on the deck, around 370ish maxed out, however
a P51 is faster without wep then a 109. Somewhere around 330 for 109 and 350 for p51.
However with 9 minutes of wep on a 109 don't think he probably all 9 minutes up, majority the p51's i run into
I hardly need the wep in combat since my climb, turn rate is enough to match a p51 without a problem.

Just remember if trying to out run a 109, might as well forget it actually - 109s outrun P51's clearly through 14k
with wep on.

[Sunka]

Pick speed up as long as you can and let him get as near to your six as you can without getting blowed up,i like to hold a bit of a right turn with nose level.Then hard break to the left and point your nose down (so you dont give him a firing solution) (make sure combat trim is off) with any luck the guy wont be looking for it or wont be fast enough to slow down ,hopefully this will leave you with a shot when he fly's by you,or as happens to me a lot he will auger trying to slow to match your speed.The 51 losses speed real fast with the full flaps and that big propeller.Use the unexpected when in a 51 most chumps expect you to run DONT! and kill the chumps that like to act like a parrot always saying runstang.At lest that is what i would do.(Saying you can do nothing is a loser attitude)

[BaldEagl]

(Saying you can do nothing is a loser attitude)
(Image removed from quote.)

I didn't say give up.  Of course you'd try every trick in the book and hope the other guy makes a mistake but as I said, given EQUAL pilots the Pony will lose almost every time unless the K4 pilot makes a grievous error (such as overshooting or augering as you suggest).

[Sunka]

That comment was not really directed directly at you,more like the thread as it was forming as a whole.Most people that answer this stuff dont fly a 51 or know how to.I find most people that fly em boom and zoom and know nothing else with the pony,yes it is hard to out turn or out break someone in it but if you put in the hours you can.And to say all sticks equal is a miss statement in the game, as you know most sticks are sub par at best,and that means tactics will get most of em (if you know tactics)and to live in a pony and go below 10 k you beater know tactics.And i think uptown was looking for anything to try not (your screwed bud) HA HA.

[EnIgMaSpItPiLoT]

       In an Ideal situation in any plane you don't want to be low and slow! You always want to try to have the alt advantage on your opponent! If this is not a possibility try to get some space and then start a shallow climb before attacking. If that is not possible always turn into the attacker make them go head on with you, so they have to risk damage to there plane too! At last resort stay and fight if you are at this disadvantage. Odds are you won't do very well if your in a 109k or a pony at low alts. But if you have no choice... well i guess you have no choice. Stay at higher alt with those planes while they can turn semi well that's not what they're made to do best. If you like burn and turn planes and that's what your into.... try spits or 109F's maybe n1K's and zero's. Planes in that category not to say it can't be done with the the pony or 109k it just takes allot more skill!

MeRcY

[Rich46yo]

That comment was not really directed directly at you,more like the thread as it was forming as a whole.Most people that answer this stuff dont fly a 51 or know how to.I find most people that fly em boom and zoom and know nothing else with the pony,yes it is hard to out turn or out break someone in it but if you put in the hours you can.And to say all sticks equal is a miss statement in the game, as you know most sticks are sub par at best,and that means tactics will get most of em (if you know tactics)and to live in a pony and go below 10 k you beater know tactics.And i think uptown was looking for anything to try not (your screwed bud) HA HA.

So what are these tactics that make them turn better, accelerate better, or climb better?

Ill give you one piece of advice Uptown and thats to "get advice" from sombody who actually flies the Mustang well and not "chumps" who get killed in them about as often as they get kills in them. My guess is these experienced guys will tell you not to get low and slow in the first place. Trying to force an overshoot in a Mustang is about as desperate an act as I can think of. It accelerates so poorly you have no chance to rebuild your energy quickly. But thats what I see some "chumps" do. They often add stick stiring to it while screaming for sombody to come save them.

Even with flaps out its a lousy turner. But....maybe I dont have the hours in it to make it turn better.

[EnIgMaSpItPiLoT]

     To turn better in A p51 or anyplane for that matter! Use throttle,.... Chop it when first turning then slowly accelerate through the turn! That's one way. Also use flaps while doing that to ... turn flaps when first going into the turn then when coming out of the turn .... turn them off! Learn the different positions of the flaps and what degree of turn for which setting 25%, 50%,75% exc.... Also don't flat turn use angels to out turn your opponent like cutting there curricle in half. If you need help my call sign is mercy I'm in the DA and TA allot I would be glad to get more into it with you if you want too! Also Look on aces high website under training and see what others have written for help on this topic and talk to trainer if the problems still keep happening.<S>

MeRcY

P.S. and try always to stay vertical at first!

[Anaxogoras]

I do believe both 51/109 are equal on wep on the deck, around 370ish maxed out, however
a P51 is faster without wep then a 109. Somewhere around 330 for 109 and 350 for p51.

Which 109 are you talking about?

The 109K-4 does 368mph on the deck with WEP, the P-51D does 365, and the gap increases with altitude.

Like others have said, if you can stay fast and use your superior roll rate you may be able to gain a snap shot with a well timed scissors maneuver.  Otherwise, a P-51D is not well suited for a 1vs1 engagement with a 109K-4.  For that matter, it's rare to see a P-51D not dive to safety against any co-alt 109, but the good 51 pilots will use the 109's heavy controls to their advantage if the 109 follows them down.

[Sunka]

So what are these tactics that make them turn better, accelerate better, or climb better?

Ummm you use tactics becuse you cant  turn better, accelerate better, or climb better.And im happy with my k/d im low and turning in a pony unlike some that stay high and do nothing but bnz.

[BaldEagl]

The best tactic (before it even began):



But then again, the MA is like a box of chocolates; You never know what you're going to run into.

[EnIgMaSpItPiLoT]

      A final thought I had on the subject is that a P51D can fly way faster then the 109k or most other planes in here! Keep it simple and keep it fast while flying it in combat. Other wise you libal to get caught and be sorry for not staying fast!