pony versus K4

[BaldEagl]

     A final thought I had on the subject is that a P51D can fly way faster then the 109k or most other planes in here! Keep it simple and keep it fast while flying it in combat. Other wise you libal to get caught and be sorry for not staying fast!

The K4 is faster than the P-51D.  It climbs better, turns better both with and without flaps, accelerates better and has more lethal guns.

[Anaxogoras]

The K4 is faster than the P-51D.

Yup.  In fact, the 190D-9 is faster than the P-51D at most altitudes up to 22k ft.  The La-7 is much faster up to 8k ft, and the P-47N is faster from about 14k and up.

[BnZ]

Fly a Jug and boycott our excuse for a Pony. The Jug ain't better than the K4 either, but it rolls better and packs more heat than the pony, and turns enough better and handles better while "wallowing" enough to give you a better chance compared to our AH Runstang Which is insane crap, as I have pointed out ad nauseum, but its what have to deal with. Also, the Jug occasionally absorbs a 30MM shell without loosing a wing or going pop, which will always comes as a surprise to the one firing the Mk. 108.

Also, don't loose heart because of the hype. There are many K4s in the MA NOT being flown by das ubersticks, so on any given day, you do stand a chance.

[Spatula]

Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.

Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.

Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.

Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.

So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.

But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.

[Rich46yo]

Ummm you use tactics becuse you cant  turn better, accelerate better, or climb better.And im happy with my k/d im low and turning in a pony unlike some that stay high and do nothing but bnz.

For the last time WHAT are these tactics your talking about? So far youv only named a pure desperation move, which is what an overshoot in a Pony is. So exactly what are these tactics your alluding to?

[Adonai]

Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.

Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.

Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.

Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.

So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.

But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.

Most of the time, roughly 85% its flown by actual decent pilots - mainly they ignore the bad views and learn to fly it. Typical 13 yr old is
going to stay in a nice bubble canopy spitfire or p51 rather then fly a 109.

[morfiend]

Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.

Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.

Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.

Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.

So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.

But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.

 Excellent advice!

 But the 1 thing missing from this is the fact that all 109's and K4 the most dont like to turn right.
   Ok to be fair,they turn better left.This can be exploited and used against the 109.Now implementing that in a 51 against a K4 is another topic in it's self

[Sunka]

For the last time WHAT are these tactics your talking about? So far youv only named a pure desperation move, which is what an overshoot in a Pony is. So exactly what are these tactics your alluding to?

Sorry, find a trainer if you dont know tactics,im not going to teach you how to fly.I can suggest some good books though if you would like.Fighter combat tactics and maneuvering by Robert Shaw is a good start for people with little skill.You might want to start their.

[Adonai]

Excellent advice!

 But the 1 thing missing from this is the fact that all 109's and K4 the most dont like to turn right.
   Ok to be fair,they turn better left.This can be exploited and used against the 109.Now implementing that in a 51 against a K4 is another topic in it's self

they turn fine to the right, just not going to beat a Spitfire in a right hand turn, I honestly would like to see a chart comparing the left/right hand turn radius.

[Rich46yo]

Sorry, find a trainer if you dont know tactics,im not going to teach you how to fly.I can suggest some good books though if you would like.Fighter combat tactics and maneuvering by Robert Shaw is a good start for people with little skill.You might want to start their.

I thought so. Funny who the "chump" ends up being aint it?

[Sunka]

<post deleted> Don't use that smiley here.

[morfiend]

they turn fine to the right, just not going to beat a Spitfire in a right hand turn, I honestly would like to see a chart comparing the left/right hand turn radius.

 Maybe my choice of words weren't the best.I should have said roll into a turn??
The tremendous torque of the K4's engine must be tamed to get the most out of right turns.
 It was only meant as a follow up to "the egg lifter's" comments. YMMV 

 

[Agent360]

Interesting topic.

In the scenario described you have one choice.....turn and fight. Dive for as much speed as you can get. Even if you are 500 feet thats 500 feet of dive and can get you 20,30 or more mph. The secret is to use ONE notch of flaps. I repeat....ONE notch. You pop the flap out ONLY to make the turn then real it in fast. It is best to immediatly nose down, then pull up with one notch of flaps and begin a rolling scissor. This will foil any gun solution. Next dive again and go to flat scissors poping your flaps out on the turn then in for the strait out and out again for the reversal. Use a little throttle managment by cutting it on the up turn and gunning in down. You now need to look for the overshoot oppurtunity. That does not mean a pure overshoot as in he's going to fly by. It means a position of your tail where he is swinging wide. Everytime he swings wide you immediatly reverse with the flaps. You will either get guns or have a moment to keep going strait as he reverses back. This gives you seperation...enough to get a little speed back and a chance to make your turn back for a nose low merge.

You have to fly on the edge. You have to use that one notch of flaps to give your plane enough turning to maneuver around his guns. If at any time the K4 stalls by flopping over immedialty go the other way STRAIT and nose low dive if you can and get every mph of speed you can. IF you can get over 600 out you have enough time to make a front quarter merge. Every time the K4 goes up you turn the other way and go STRAIT.

If you maneuver correctly you WILL get enough seperation and speed to atleast give yourself a chance of a front quarter or even raking canopy shot in the scissor.

[uptown]

ok so what i'm getting out of this, besides adonai saying i have the mind set of a 13 yr old  , is that the only weakness i can exploit is a right hand roll or turn, because of the torque to the 109K4s prop.
Maybe a whip to the right, then left, and back right and try to roll over on top and behind? One of the things I like to try to do is beat a enemy at his own game. It's not very smart, but sure feels good when I can pull it off I usually kill more 109s then kill me..except the K4. When I get into trouble i can pull away to build some E, but that don't work against a K4

And Adonai sir, just because i fly a mustang don't make me 13, but says i have better taste in aircraft then you  

thanks for the input fellas  

[uptown]

Thankyou Agent, i was hoping to hear from you. I'll be looking for K4s until I get this figured out.