Author Topic: proof p-51 is undermodeled...  (Read 2239 times)

Offline A8TOOL

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2008, 11:21:08 PM »
Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.

He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.

At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.

The 51B is over modeled???

http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf

Offline pervert

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 06:09:35 AM »
I'd take dogfights with a pinch of salt although I must confess I enjoy watching the show and hearing the old pilots storys  :rofl I wonder if these manvouers where preformed with an actual simulator although I doubt it. I know they brought out a game based on this Kuma games I think? I've tryed a few of the manvouers from the show exactly as described in ah and il2 and never got close to any of them even switched the force feedback off my stick so i could snap it quicker no joy sadly  :cry

this clip looks like a typical gang/pick session in aces high!  :lol :lol
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XSUs7Np1nA

Offline Gixer

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2008, 06:15:59 AM »
"The P-51 is not a Flanker." :rofl
 :aok

No but this is..Flanker-F   :O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By43vSGo-BU


<S>...-Gixer

Offline Kazaa

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2008, 06:36:28 AM »
When I watch dogfights I always say "yeah alright, I can't pull that move in AH2"  :rofl
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 06:40:56 AM by Kazaa »



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Offline uptown

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2008, 06:47:54 AM »
There's two different moves in that thread. Don Bryan's and Candelaria's. I think both were posted in AH format too. Tango posted his "flat plate" I think. Ah hell, I'll just go re-read the thread  :furious  :lol

Are you saying Tango can do this? If you can find that post I'd sure like to read it. :salute
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Offline bmwgs

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2008, 07:03:22 AM »









Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.

He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.

At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.

The 51B is over modeled???

http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf



Interesting how his right wing hits the ground all the way up to the flaps with no damage, or maybe its my viewer and I'm just seeing things again.     Wish my planes could do that.   :D

Fred
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline Widewing

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 08:22:18 AM »
Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.

He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.

At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.

The 51B is over modeled???

http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf

You were not flying the Spit to its strengths and were cross-controlling it badly (must have a twisty stick). Once the flaps came out on the P-51, you needed only take the fight vertical.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Race

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 09:48:43 AM »
Gents,
     First let me say that was a rather fun fight and actually not really my best flying. One thing I want to dispel first is my wing thru the ground. On my FE I was more like 40-50 feet in the air. Due to internet you saw me being a little lower. My wings come off just like everyone elses.

   After that Widewing's assement is spot on. There are two things I jus cant cope with in a fight. The first is to get slow and then go vertical. If we go vert on the merge its not a strong point but I can manage. After we have slowed down its hard to get my nose back up. Having said that usually if I cant cope with the vert maneuver I will extend out and use the 51's speed to either disengage or remerge.

   Anyone looking to beat me in a fight shouldnt have to fly crazy maneuvers. The 51 and any flying style similar to mine has a deep flaw and is sort of Achilles heal. Im not going to give it away but a look at 1 stat can give the answer. Its incredibly hard to fly that slow and use the instabilites to your advantage.

RAce
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Offline A8TOOL

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2008, 12:41:18 PM »

Going into the vertical would have been the right move. I began filming after a few rounds of being tagged and continued what I was doing until damaged then tried to see if he could turn with me.

Internet lag...possible... but film does not show that. I've fought and filmed him again the next day using much different flying styles as he's said and the 51-B abilities were not repeated, he died in a good fight twice and flew as expected.

Could be some days your on and some days your not...I could say the same for myself.








Offline A8TOOL

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2008, 01:07:49 PM »
I'd take dogfights with a pinch of salt although I must confess I enjoy watching the show and hearing the old pilots storys  :rofl I wonder if these manvouers where preformed with an actual simulator although I doubt it.

this clip looks like a typical gang/pick session in aces high!  :lol :lol
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XSUs7Np1nA


Great film....for some reason I really wanted that 109 pilot to survive and make a successful run for it.

In the end, I realize of course, he was much to dangerous to live.  :(

Offline Race

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 01:57:13 PM »
     In any fight (for me) where I am up against a plane with superior turning ability I am hoping to get the fight I want. Generally that's both planes going down hill with many changes in direction. In a straight flat turn I cant begin to compete with a Spitfire or N1K. However if you start rolling and scissoring I can use the the low speed qualities of the flaps and skill. Ironically some of the new pilots give me the most trouble.
     
      Flat turn luftberries on the deck give me a quick end. I am sure you noticed in that fight you were consistently faster than me. When you take fast (but with a larger radius) turns and reverse you end up with a slower less maneuverable plane turning inside of you. I  would rather face a Spit 16 in the 51B than a Spit 5-8 or 9. Why? Its really easy to be too fast in a 16 and its why I will point new fliers to the earlier models.

       Sorry but the internet issues can cause 3-4 times that much difference in what you see. Krusty, Widewing, Lushce or any of the long time players who have tested this can elaborate if they want. I wish I had filmed it for many reasons and now one is to show you. I might have scratched the paint (I think I might have drug a wing to be honest) but I don't like even a hint of any sort of unethical activities.

      The 51 is a great bird and both are capable of incredible feats of flying. I wish I could show some of them but I just dont film alot. In the end its spending time learning how to make her tic and knowing what the plane wants. People dont understand how you can flip (180 roll) so fast. Its simple....practice. If its under modeled I cant wait til its fixed!

Race
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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2008, 02:49:50 PM »
I loooove the Pony B, it's been my favorite plane since the first time I've flown it.  Low-alt in a B-model is like being 25k in a D-model, just very well mannered. :aok
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Offline dtango

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 04:15:01 PM »
Oh dear.  Not this thread again. :D  I hope this doesn't go 7 pages like the last time!

Are you saying Tango can do this? If you can find that post I'd sure like to read it. :salute

Uptown- scotch mentioned the thread above.  Widewing posted a move.  I posted what I call the "flat plate".  I'm not sure either are "exactly" Candelaria's move depicted in Dogfights but I wouldn't take the CGI in the show too literally anyhow.

Here are couple of the animated gif's I posted in that thread:





For my maneuver, it came about from analyzing various aspects of aerodynamics modelled in AH and spending time thinking about various energy dumping maneuvers that I could perform in a Mustang in AH.  The flat plate is not something I have used very often in the MA and when I do it's usually a last ditch maneuver or when I'm just messing around and don't care about the stakes ;).  You need both enough speed to do it as well as enough altitude to recover. 

At any rate it leaves you with little energy at the end of the maneuver which means you've just severely limited your options.  On top of that it's like waiting for paint to dry for the Mustang to regain kinetic energy compared to alot of other aircraft because of it's underpowered engine compared to others.  It's a neat trick.  It can be useful but those opportunities are rare in my book because of the disadvantages.

I haven't showed our squad how to do it because of it's limited usability but I'll post something in the 412th forum in the next week or so for ya if you're interested.

Tango, XO
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2008, 04:24:25 PM »
Now that's a sweet move dtango.  It looks much more like the dogfights movie than anything else I've seen.  Care to share? :pray
gavagai
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Offline Widewing

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Re: proof p-51 is undermodeled...
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2008, 06:12:31 PM »
Now that's a sweet move dtango.  It looks much more like the dogfights movie than anything else I've seen.  Care to share? :pray

It's exactly the same as I did.... Stick forward to the left, full right rudder.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.