Where's the #@&#&^ Goon? Dammit!!!

[Beegerite]

Alternate topic name; Who's *&&^#$% in Charge?

I'd been in the room a few minutes and noticing that there was activity over base 9 I headed there when the title message scrolled across my text buffer.  I couldn't help but imagine a cigar chomping type like Gen. Curtis LeMay agitated as hell and wondering where the *&$%# goon was.  All the Rooks in the room musta been looking at the text buffer, as I was, wondering who the responsible party was that didn't bring the ($%%#@ goon.  Well, it became apparent to me that nobody was the responsible party cause as far as I could see nobody had ordered a *&$%#$ goon.  Why?  I assume it's because we all pay $29.95 and nobody wants to give orders as well as the fact that some wouldn't even consider taking them even for the benefit of the Mother Rookland.  Thinking that this FUBAR situation might be resolved by a little democracy I suggested on the channel that we vote on a leader to call the shots and turn us into a cohesive fighting force instead of a bunch of barbarians storming the gates.  Even that isn't a fair analogy because Ghenghis Khan was called a barbarian and he conquered half the world.  The consensus was a well known Rook whose credentials include a rating in the top 50 overall fighter ratings for Tour 2  I had no problem and gave my agreement thinking Great!  Democracy at Work.  Then somebody types; Not me, I'm independent!  OK, no problem, maybe he has a plan to do the job by himself.  Then, the well known and respected (at least by me) Rook announces he has to go to dinner and annoints somebody else to take his place but it seems that party isn't giving orders so we return to the chaos.  Eventually, a couple of hours later, I saw the base was captured but it could have happened a lot sooner if we had only been able to put our egos aside and work together.  The purpose of this message is to start a thread on some possible suggestions to these FUBAR situations which happen all to often and which in my opinion at least take away from the realism of what is supposed to be a simulation of a military operation.  Never been in the service myself, but somehow I suspect that anyone who would announce in wartime that they were independent might get to taste some friendly fire, LOL!
Beeg
 

[Beegerite]

And here's my suggestion;

1. Ranks should be given in accordance to the previous tours overall fighter rankings Kills per time column. Subject to debate of course.  This should be done by AH but in the meantime we can agree jointly.
2. Here's a non-inclusive listing of Rooks presently to be considered Generals in accordance to the statistics above.  Feel free to add anyone I've missed in my quick check of known and online people last night;

Bull     0.0017
Wizzer   0.0016
Mandoble 0.0015
Cobra    0.0014
Roper    0.0013
Sn1p3r   0.0013
Pongo    0.0012
Visconti 0.0013
Chaunc   0.0013
CavemanJ 0.0010
JagdNine 0.0010
Logan    0.0008
DoZZ     0.0008
Jim Bear 0.0008

Why? Cause these guys have proven either in fair combat or by the time honored method of the quick bounce from above that they can get the job done in the least possible amount of time.  Using the Kills per time statistic I believe is fairest even to those who may not be able to fly as much but are good and can teach others how to kill the enemy.  

3. These guys are there day after day and night after night.

4. Maybe they're leaders and maybe they would rather follow.  The main thing is that we need to find a fair way to designate those who will lead us into battle which is known and accepted by all the regulars.

5. Do we have to follow? Not necessarily!  We all pay the same and it's a free country or internet.  Should you decide to do your own thing just announce that you're on your own. No problemo.  However, if you sign on to the "master plan", be prepared to get orders and to do your best to follow them.  The "Generals" in turn should only assign command jobs (e.g. a secondary front) to another who meets the previous tour qualifications.  Not just to some crony who sucks like me.

6. Communicate and create a chain of command just like the real world military.  Assign a fighter commander, a buff commander, a tank commander and somebody in charge of defense. RW is an essential tool and anyone entering battle without it is severely handicapped in spite of the excellent text comms which AH has given us.  Don't know anybody that can type get this *&^#$% of my tail as fast as they can say it.

7. Since some may want to fly with their entire squadron.  Squadrons to be rated by the highest ranking member.

8. We should have individual forums for Rooks, Knights and Bishops in addition to squad forums.  Entrance should be restricted to only those who flew at least the last 70% of the last Tour as a Rook (B or K).  This is a programming issue but shouldn't be hard to do.  This would allow battle plans to be available to all Rooks (yeah, you too) hot off the press e.g. tonight we will attack field X from bases Y Z.  Fighters from X and Buffs from Z with the rendevous point being 10.11 5 at Angels 25 at 02:00 GMT (make that clock in the airplane GMT time HT)

So, there is my initial idea.  I've got my asbestos suit on, let'er rip.  BTW, I have no delusions of grandeur as my ratings at this time would qualify me to clean the latrines.

Rooklandia Forever

Beeg

[Pongo]

Too many people would be seriosly opposed to this concept. Some of those guys might volenteer there flying time to watch the dar and order people arround if they got to put there initials on there AC.


------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Westy]

 My take? If someone wants to capture a base then they should try to organize as many people togther who would like to do the same. And even then be aware that real life will untimely raise it's ugly head as well as the frequent bad internet connection that cause some to log off.  Hey, stuff just happens.
 But some folks, in my eyes, get too damned serious about what goes on in the general melee arena. It isn't a real war and there is NOTHING to win. It's a big gerbil wheel   Tommorow will be the same sh&t, just a different day.
  When I log on I look for fun, without someone telling me how to have that fun nor hounding me (or the whole country on the open channel) to help them with thier fun.  I try to make "6" calls. If I miss one or don't call it to begin with, so what? Watch your own six (I'm generalising here. Not singling out Beegerite or anyone else).  If you knock out a base? Good for you! Just don't start screaming on the country channel that you need a C47. If no one offers to help within a minute or two of asking then land and grab one yourself. Folks will probably be more than happy to CAP or escort the C47 but not everyone wants to jump into a C47 to support an unorganized attack.
  To each thier own. I'm not implying folks shouldn't play 'General' so I will simply say I'll do what ever I want to when online and it usually means ignoring some guy who feels he can direct the activities of all the Rooks/Knights/Bishops on line at that time. General Whoever had best count me out unless I'm in the mood for what ever is happening and I feel like participating. Scenarios are a different ball game imo.
 
  -Westy


[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 04-11-2000).]

[RAM]

I'll say this in few words and as clear as I can. I will follow NO orders in AH by ANY people, other than the ones that I want to follow (as the ones given by my squad CO  ). I follow enough orders in my life to have to follow them TOO in my free time. Sorry but no way in it. If someone wants to organice a mission and I like it and I wanna go in, then its ok, but I do it because I choose it.

IMHO there is no need for ranks at all, as I'll follow a "general" orders like a "sergeant" ones. If I like his plan I'll do it, if not, he can call the MP cuz I'll go my way.

[Minotaur]

Beeg;

I have pretty much given up on the concept of "Winning the War".  The game is not really geared towards doing that.  If one side does win it is usually because they have a huge numbers advantage or they have stayed up all night.  

However; I have thought along the lines of your post many times.  Most of the time you just can't get a coalition of players together to get anything done.  I do know your frustration.

Your ideas would most certainly work and are very valid and well thought out.  Getting players to co-operate is the only difficulty that I see in it.  I think that if players fell in with your ideas they would find there gaming experience enhanced.  I really doubt this will happen on a large scale.

Simply put, "Teamwork in the Game, Breeds Success".  I suggest that you join a well organized squad and try to find a wingy if you have not.  IMO that is where the game is at.

Good Luck!  

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[Cobra]

All good posts, with every point of view having merit.

Beeg,
A very well thought out concept.

Here's my take on this...

The Musketeers have been wrestling with this very issue, not so much as to who is in charge of want, but more along the lines of just trying to get a little organization and cooperation amongst the Rooks for defense and offense.

My take is that the organized squads that already exist on the Rook side should try to get together at some point and try to do joint, co-op missions as much as they can, or as each squad decides.  

It is readily apparent that version 1.02 takes much more organization and cooperation just for defensive measures, let alone mounting any offensive missions that will have any chance of success.

In the last 2 nights, the Wrecking Crew and the Musketeers have combined in joint operations and the Real Estate on the map shows the results.  All we really do is get on RW together and a special AH radio bar frequency and figure out what we need where.

There is no rigid structure, but the more we do these type of missions, the more we get into a pattern and learn from each other and get to know who prefers what mission and the coordination is improving every night.

What we need is the Rook Squadrons to get together somehow to coordinate their activities.  Not every night, obviously, but if we are severly down on bases and being hit at all sides, then joint, cooperative, and organized counter-attacks are the surest way we can get out of the hole.

The folks that don't belong to any organized squads are always welcome to join in on the missions or do their own thing, just as the squads are.  It just seems to be that it can be very rewarding to jointly work on goals and then obtaining those mission goals.

These are my thoughts on the subject, and I know everyone has other preferences and opinions, and that's the great thing about this sim, it can accomodate all styles of simming.

Cobra out!

[Westy]

 Imo your on target Cobra in describing the best way one could get that type of  gameplay they want into a Main arena.
 Create the cooperation and infrastructure needed. Don't lay it down as a mandatory rule for others to follow/heed.

  -Westy

[glacey]

This thing is going through a learning curve just like many of us WB escapees.

If it's any consolation I have found exactly the same lack of consolidated drive but IT WILL COME because this game requires combined ops (least it will when they get the OTTO/FIGHTER gun ratio right).

glacey

[skippy]

A real leader can organize a 'cohesive fighting unit..' we don't want to be under whip'n'chain to have to follow. When I goto the movies and pay $16.00 for 2 , I dam well gonna see the movie I want ! Not what someone thinks I should see...same goes for this game !

[Beegerite]

Pongo;
Thanks for the reply.  This being a somewhat emotional issue, I would expect all sorts of opposition to this kind of idea.  However, the purpose of the thread is to gauge opinion pro or con this particular perspective.  As I originally said, the choice is the player's nobody need be forced into anything on the other hand if a number of people want to play this way then they should also have that option.  This still leaves me with the question, how do YOU feel about the idea.  According to the stats you would most definetely qualify for a leadership position.
Thanks
Beeg
 

Originally posted by Pongo:
Too many people would be seriosly opposed to this concept.

[Beegerite]

Westy;
Thanks for your input.  My take on your take is that trying to organize without some system of "credentials" may result in a few problems.  To re-state my position.  NOBODY NEED PLAY THE SUGGESTED WAY but those that want some kind of structure, strategy etc. should also have the right to enjoy that.  Bottom line is that I enjoy the game the way it is but I think I would enjoy it more if it provided the elements I suggest.  You on the other hand seem to prefer a more relaxed and informal game.  As far as ignoring some people, I guess we all do but if a fellow Rook has shown that he has what it takes I for one would be more inclined to follow him/her rather than somebody who just sounds like MacArthur but hasn't proven it where it counts.  Discussing this among ourselves will hopefully lead to a consensus and I welcome your differing opinion.
Beeg  
 

Originally posted by Westy:
My take? If someone wants to capture a base then they should try to organize as many people togther who would like to do the same. And even then be aware that real life will untimely raise it's ugly head as well as the frequent bad internet connection that cause some to log off.  Hey, stuff just happens.
 But some folks, in my eyes, get too damned serious about what goes on in the general melee arena. It isn't a real war and there is NOTHING to win. It's a big gerbil wheel   Tommorow will be the same sh&t, just a different day.
  When I log on I look for fun, without someone telling me how to have that fun nor hounding me (or the whole country on the open channel) to help them with thier fun.  I try to make "6" calls. If I miss one or don't call it to begin with, so what? Watch your own six (I'm generalising here. Not singling out Beegerite or anyone else).  If you knock out a base? Good for you! Just don't start screaming on the country channel that you need a C47. If no one offers to help within a minute or two of asking then land and grab one yourself. Folks will probably be more than happy to CAP or escort the C47 but not everyone wants to jump into a C47 to support an unorganized attack.
  To each thier own. I'm not implying folks shouldn't play 'General' so I will simply say I'll do what ever I want to when online and it usually means ignoring some guy who feels he can direct the activities of all the Rooks/Knights/Bishops on line at that time. General Whoever had best count me out unless I'm in the mood for what ever is happening and I feel like participating. Scenarios are a different ball game imo.
 
  -Westy


[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 04-11-2000).]

[Beegerite]

RAM;
Thanks for your input.  As I stated in my Anglized version, No hay problema si algien no quiere luchar bajo las ordenes del Comandante Generalisimo Supremo o del Sargento A Cargo De Inodoros.  Gracias por tu opinion.
Beeg, Buck Private (Soldado Razo)

 

Originally posted by RAM:
I'll say this in few words and as clear as I can. I will follow NO orders in AH by ANY people, other than the ones that I want to follow (as the ones given by my squad CO   ). I follow enough orders in my life to have to follow them TOO in my free time. Sorry but no way in it. If someone wants to organice a mission and I like it and I wanna go in, then its ok, but I do it because I choose it.

IMHO there is no need for ranks at all, as I'll follow a "general" orders like a "sergeant" ones. If I like his plan I'll do it, if not, he can call the MP cuz I'll go my way.

[Beegerite]

Mino;
Can't help myself, I love it when somebody agrees with me    My hope is that all will express their opinion pro or con so we can all see the kind of play the majority prefer.  Again, this doesn't mean the minority have to go along.  BTW, I do belong to a very elite squad, Tiger Squadron with a total of 3 members but we've got a lot more back in FA and we'll eventually get them all here, LOL.  
 

Originally posted by Minotaur:
Beeg;

I have pretty much given up on the concept of "Winning the War".  The game is not really geared towards doing that.  If one side does win it is usually because they have a huge numbers advantage or they have stayed up all night.    

However; I have thought along the lines of your post many times.  Most of the time you just can't get a coalition of players together to get anything done.  I do know your frustration.

Your ideas would most certainly work and are very valid and well thought out.  Getting players to co-operate is the only difficulty that I see in it.  I think that if players fell in with your ideas they would find there gaming experience enhanced.  I really doubt this will happen on a large scale.

Simply put, "Teamwork in the Game, Breeds Success".  I suggest that you join a well organized squad and try to find a wingy if you have not.  IMO that is where the game is at.

Good Luck!  

[Beegerite]

Cobra;
Nobody knows more about FUBARed engaments than a fellow FA2 escapee, LOL.  You've brought up a couple of points I want to thank you for and to add a couple of notes of my own e.g.

"but more along the lines of just trying to get a little organization and cooperation amongst the Rooks for defense and offense."

That's what I'd like ot see, a little more org.

"organized squads...should try to get together at some point and try to do joint, co-op missions as much as they can, or as each squad decides."

Pleeeze count on the vast resources (3) of Tiger Squadron any time the Musketeers are planning anything.  We loved to battle you in FA Realistic and believe it or not we're Rooks because that's where we found guys like you and Thorns.  

"It is readily apparent that version 1.02 takes much more organization and cooperation just for defensive measures, let alone mounting any offensive missions that will have any chance of success."

Bases don't seem to flip over as easily do they?  The ol' standard BCG (buff, cap & goon) routine can fail a lot quicker in this version.

Thanks,
Beeg