Boloney Again! Base Supply Lines Issue

[Minotaur]

HTC;

The many strategic elements of your game, I am sure have not gone unnoticed.  This particular one was a brilliant coup by the Knitwits.  I actually thought it was kind of frustratingly funny (I was on the receiving end of it), but it was IMO much to easy to accomplish by them.

Whallah!
           

I am sure this was fun for the individuals who pulled this off.  Basically the mission is  comprised of 1 BUFF, 1 C-47 and 1 hour of flying time.  A beautiful sneak attack.  This base is near the ocean and one can fly off the map, then jump back on and Whallah you own the base.

By owning this stategic base you own immediate access to the HQ, and all the production facilities.  So for one hour, when your team is overwhelming by numbers or by a neat sneak attack.  You get to frustrate your opponents literally for hours on end, or perhaps even for a full day or two.

My question is "How could such a base be even remotely realistically resupplied?".  This is the equivilent of capturing ONE remote airfield, with laughably minimum resources, and then winning the entire war because of it.  I do realise "It is only a game".  Perhaps this frustration level inspires more game play and is desired, I have no clue.        

It only takes a few players on this team to be on-line for them to hold this particular base almost indefinately.  It is on a mountain.  Mountain bases are very difficult to take and relatively easy to defend.  I might add this one is particularly hard to retake, because of the extremely good  tactical position it holds on the game board.

To date, this is the only game issue that I have seen that makes people want to change teams or not want to play.  For many, the frustration level is too high to be fun.

This is because the organization required to retake this airfield is "Too Great" for many arena players.  IE; most do not want to commit the play time into retaking it.  Just change teams, ignore it thinking "This Kind of Sucks" or log off thinking "That Kind of Sucked".  

Please add a supply line element or make it harder to capture and/or to hold bases that are so far behind enemy lines.  The element of "Killing a Base", prior to capturing or even limiting the fuel loads on C-47's would suffice.

If this is a strategic element that you have intended to be part of the game, please disregard my post.  Otherwise consider my opinions, I believe they  are close to those of many other players, who have not expressed theirs here.

Thanks!  

Mino

PS: I recall that Bash did die!  


[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-01-2000).]

[214CaveJ]

Mino if that was yesterday, field 1 was brought to you by myself(B26) and Rocket(C47).  The Wrecking Crew was flying for the nits because of the major frustration from only having fields 11 and 15 and not being able to anything because there were only 6 Rooks beind held down by a total of 40 bish and nit (+/- 2or3).  We started by taking field 8 then went after 4, and a major battle erupted for 4 (drawing attention away from the Rooks, which was the idea =).
For the record, I went due south from field 8, turning left or right as needed to follow the terrian, but staying in the *,8 column.  Flew under many bishcuits and the tension level was high for the whole trip, escpecially the 7 minutes of my climb to 14k so I could safely bomb the acks.  A bish B26 took off while I was over the field and headed north (guess he dinnae look up =).

I love doing this kind of run because they're really fun, especially when they succeed =)

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Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

[Rocket]

The c47 (me) flew from 8 also.  The first time I took off I flew just past 4, could see the dots of planes, and just outta 1 was going to set down and wait of cavemanj but someone came to my door.  It is amazing what the ground does to a goon!  The second trip was basicly the same route thru sectors *,8.  I popped up above dar level at the last minute, almost toooo late  , and made my drop.  During the period just before I popped up 3 different planes started to spawn at 1 and then moved.  I don't like to fly off the edge of the map as I consider it exploiting a game issue. Doesn't seem fair to have stealth ya know?  I also always get sweaty plams and butterflies in the stomach on the final approach knowing a single fighter doing a good sweep could find me or a fighter spawning could spoil 20 mins of flight to the target.

S!

Rocket

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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de

[Minotaur]

Rocket / Cave;

Thank you for your replies.  Your point is well taken.  Your execution was very well done.  A surprize attack is the essence of winning a battle (Sun Tzu) or in this case the next days war.  Congratulations to you, I know it had to be fun!    

Please forgive me of my assumptions of your  flying off the map.  I do know that was one way it can be accomplished.  I find no fault in this strategy nor anyone doing it.  I do find fault of the game rules that allows it.  

Secondly forgive my oversight, I never bothered to notice which team captured this base.  However; it only serves to reinforce my position.  Six Rocks and the base was taken and held all day and into the evening.  Relax, while I grovel a minute at your feet.    

"If it is in the Game, it is in the Game".  IMO this tactic is so unrealistic that it rots of "Doomdom"!  But alas, it works very well and I expect it to be a often used (or over used) strategy.  


HTC;

Whallah
       

Notice a pattern?  This base was taken about the same time as yesterday.  IMO it is just to easy to accomplish.  Testified by the fact that now it is done repeatedly.  As soon as the base was taken, the base returned to full strength (3 acks) and multiple B-17's launched for the HQ as well as many fighters to defend the base.

To be honest, I will not pay for this frustration on a daily basis, no matter how much I love your game.  This is because, one easily accomplished sneak attack and you can't win.  I don't mind losing my share of the time, but this makes it far too easy to lose ALL THE TIME.  I hope that some strategic element will be added.

Again, if this is your intention, please disregard this post.  I am only one customer and I can play some where else or live with the frustration.  Thanks!    
 
Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-01-2000).]

[popeye]

Fool me once, shame on you....
Fool me twice, shame on me.    

popeye

[Pongo]

Dol.
These kinds of things do fail of course...But its not interesting when they do.
There are lots of historical precidence for war not always being a battle of attrition...
My self I would think less of AH if a small group of well coordiated lucky pilots couldnt make a difference.
I would recommend that people who think that and attack like that is easy just because few deaths where involved I suggest that they try it 5 times and see how many time it works..
The best counter to this is good coms on your country channel.
When you see something suspicios on radar...call it out.. If you get the chance to teleport to a field that is questionable do it...When you take off look arround.. Those dots show up a long way off. If you see a dot that is not accounted for, ask on country channel if it is someone flying low...
I have sat on the ground within 5 k of field 1 for over 40 minutes in the past..
War favours the bold..And punishes them...

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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille

[Minotaur]

Popeye;

Thanks for your reply.  

Exactly what do suggest that I do to prevent being fooled a third, forth, fifth or sixth time?

I could log into to the game and spend 3, 4, 5, 6 hours capping this base OK?  That sounds fun...

I could do nothing but fly missions trying to capture my opponents base adjacent to their HQ?  That sounds fun...

Pongo;

Thank you also for your reply.

Exactly what component of war, boldness or foolishness allows a base 200 miles behind the FLOT to be re-supplied indefinately?  

Exactly what strategy of war allows a "Major", "Vital", and "Far Behind the FLOT" base to be captured with 3 bombs (1 BUFF) and one drop of Special forces (1 C-47)?

IMO, you can not compare "Real War" to this "Game".  You either like this element of the game or you do not.  I understand that you do.  However; I do not.  <Salute>

BTW, I did log off today thinking "That Kind of Sucked".  I have to go clean my bathroom anyway.  

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-01-2000).]

[Rocket]

AKDejaVu and I accomplished this again today.  There was a F4u on the field and a B26 in the air when I dropped.  I actually didn't think it would work.  This is where strong teamwork comes in to play.  The bomber was on dar the whole way and a 2 fighter sweep would have found me long before I had a chance to push the screaming drunks out the door.  I small fighter sweep around a field that shows a red mark on the dar after a bomber hit is usually a good idea and I got 5 47s yesterday doing that.  MarkVZ thought something was up at f17 but just vectored into the sector with the mark on the dar and started sweeping.  Jarbo saw a dot and we both headed that way. Lo and behold a 47.  Spoiled the moment for the takeover.  But doing this takes TEAMWORK.  If everyone goes looking for the fight then strat becomes easy for the opposing forces.

BTW my this is my last quick grab of f1 for abit.  I really don't wanna piss ppl off.  
Besides I don't really think it can be done 3 days straight to the same team if they learned the hard lessons  

S! Mino!

Rocket

------------------
The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de

[Rocket]

Also I agree that supply should be an issue at this type of capture.  We should have to use 47s or convoy thru your area to keep supplies up.


S!
Rocket

------------------
The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de

[popeye]

Some good suggestions from Pongo and Rocket on defending this tactic.  If we accept that the gameplay is gameplay, then we can accept the unrealistic resupply and capture issues.

However, I'd like to see more "realist" gameplay for capture and supply.  See:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000244.html

popeye

[Pongo]

I enjoy the teamwork that goes into any opperation like this, but I am not defending the realism of it...But if the recently captured field needs admin supply then all of them do...The AH world would be a teaming mass of trucks delivering p51s like those pictures of planes being shipped in england..
Fuel ammo.
The attrition rate in AH would require the whole map to be covered in factories to maintain it..1500-2000 planes a day? 500000-700000 planes a year...
Minotaur, I know what your saying, but the whole thing requires logistical fantasy from the start.
How about...  
It takes 10 paras per fighter field to capture a bomber field..And 10 per field to capture the main field...
But Cave will just want to capture it more than ever...
 

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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille

[Minotaur]

Rocket;

Guess who was in the B-26...  Argh!!!  

I saw the NME marker and I smelled a fish. I did see you and the drunks, but I could not take off and attack at the same time.

By the time I could get through 270 degrees of turn, 2 B-17's had already taken off, and 2 or 3 F4U's were on the runway.  About then, your ack (which was my ack 5 seconds before) lit me up.  Knowing what was ahead, I just logged off.  

I doubt the use of this tactic will stop with your admission of not doing it three days in row or more often.  How could you honestly resist the temptation, knowing how easy it is?  

I do not think that one strategic element of this simplistic war should have so much impact on the rest of game play.  The rest of the game play being the ACM part.  That is what I had thought this game was really all about.

<S>  

Mino

[214CaveJ]

Minotaur-
It's this simple.  Watch the map.  When you see a red marker in a quadrant, but ya dinnae see a pinpoint dot you can do 1 of 2 things.  Sit at the field in that quadrant for a few minutes and see if a pinpoint dot appears or you can ignore it.  If you ignore it, you may be fooled again.
If you choose to sit and look around for a few minutes you may uncover a sneak attack.  If no pinpoint dot appears either the bandit is headed elsewhere or they're on the deck flying NOE (or both maybe =)
You have 2 choices, ignore it or investigate it farther.  If you ignore it you may be fooled again.
If you investigate it further you may uncover a sneak attack.  Watch the map.  If it is a sneak attack the bomber must climb before it reaches its target.  For fields at 3500ft they'll have to start climbing about 12-15 miles out to be high enough to stay out of the acks.  For the 5000ft fields about 18-20miles out(and that's cutting it close).  You can see thier dot on dar very clearly.  If there is an adjacent sector w/ a marker but no pinpoint dot you can assume the gooney bird is there.  Now you pick your fighter and go looking for the gooney bird.  Ignore the bomber (and you'll really irritate him) and find his drunks, then kill them.

Rocket just because people get frustrated is no reason to stop this.  Unless thier dar is down they are perfectly capable of stopping these attacks.

BTW mino, I think I started this a good while back, and the first time I did it we did fly over the water to avoid being dar =)

[Minotaur]

Cave;

Thanks for your reply.  

I have played this game enough to be able to prevent this from happening.  I just do not want to dedicate the majority of my playing time do so, on a constant basis.  While it is exciting for you, it would be quite boring for me.  

Game wise I have no option wether or not all my strategic eggs are placed in one basket.  Nor how easy it is for an opposing team to come and bust them.  This is a static part of the AH game board.  I have no choice in the matter.

However as it stands, I do know how to stop this from frustrating me.

1) Not go into SA overload by engaging into ACM against opposing aircraft.
2) Fly a BUFF and watch the scenery go by, not caring about DAR.
3) Park in a CAP pattern high over base F1 as soon as a red bar marker for the sector shows.
4) Spend all my play time in and around base F1, in case a sneak goon shows up.
5) Get the game changed if I can.
6) Change teams to the Rocks or the Knitwits as soon as it occurs.
7) Log off and not provide any further competion for the opposing team.
8) Not play at all.
9) Learn to play without DAR or base defenses.

I can truly say all these options effect absolutely no one but myself.  The "Gag" is on me, but only if I let it.  Eventually I will just stop playing, or learn to ignore it totally.

In the current game, I say "More Power to You!".  I realize that you are just "Gaming the Game".  

This must be a BUFF drivers dream and I know it has to be a blast for you.  Now you get access to a vast number of targets, with much less effort and risk than would normally be required.  

You get to frustrate your opponents for hours.  Most importantly, you don't have to spend hours of fighting to gain this access.  The game provides a very easy method.  

IE: If the game were like a prize fight and you began to lose, you could just nail your opponent in the nards with the ref not looking, then laugh about it as you accepted the winners trophy.

Good Luck and enjoy.      

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-01-2000).]

[Minotaur]

HTC;

This is the lingering effect seven hours after the screen shot above.

   

BTW, the three team numbers at the time this screen shot was taken were 28B, 16K, 28R.

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-01-2000).]