Author Topic: F6F-5 Performance  (Read 8324 times)

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 10:43:32 AM »
The AH P-51B has the V-1650-3 engine and racks, and no "air force" in AH has the best fuel available. Ponys and Spits don't get 100/150, the 109's don't get C3 and the Japanese planes have to make due with the piss poor fuel they had. Nice Ami-whine though!

They have apparently been rather more optimistic in regards to the K-4...our K-4 actually exceeds these figures in top speed at altitude and climb rate.





It also appears there may be some "optimism" going on in regards to the 109Gs



I should point out here that our 109 G-2 does in fact pull 1.42 ata. However:

 "The engine limitations were 1.3 ata/2600 rpm in accordance with VT-Anweisung Nr.2206 through 1942 and most, if not all, of 1943. Evidence points to the DB 605 A not being fully cleared for 1.42 ata/2800 rpm before spring 1944 (Bf109 G-4/R3, G-6/R3 Bedienungsvorschrift-F1 Ausgabe Februar 1944)."''

BTW, it is exceedingly humorous you would accuse a guy who has flown hundreds if not thousands of LW MA sorties in a Fw-190 A-5 of harboring some irrational anti-Luftwaffe bias.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 11:01:48 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 11:16:27 AM »
OTOH, it appears there may be some slight pessimism in regards to the 190 A-5, at least as regards top speed at sea-level.

Interesting side effect of our very, um, "strongly" modeled 109s is the rendering of the Luftwaffe's other fighter series more or less superfluous by comparison to its contemporary Messerschmidts. A person making an evaluation based solely on in-game performance would be justified in wondering why Germany wasted production resources on the Fw at all.


 Horizontalgeschwindigkeit über der Flughöhe
  Normaljäger Fw 190 A-5, 20.10.43            Level Speed: MPH   /   km/h
   352 mph at Sea Level      567 at 0 meters
   408 mph at 20,669'      656 at 6.3 km
  Steiggeschwindigkeit u. Steigzeit über
  der Flughöhe, Normaljäger Fw 190 A-5
  20.10.1943          Climb: feet/min.   /   m/s
   2,938 at Sea Level      15.0 at 0 meters
   2,997 at 2,953'      15.3 at .9 km
  Flugzeug-Entwicklungs-Blatt FW 190 (J)
  GL/C-E2, 1.11.44            Level Speed: MPH   /   km/h
   351 mph at Sea Level      565 at 0 meters
   407 mph at 20,669'      655 at 6.3 km
Climb: feet/min.   /   m/s
   3,290 at SL      16.8 at 0 meters
  Zusammenstellung der wichtigsten
  Flugleistungen der Normaljäger Fw 190
  mit BMW 801 D            Level Speed: MPH   /   km/h
   352 mph at Sea Level      567 at 0 meters
   408 mph at 20,669'      656 at 6.3 km
   Fw 190 A-5/A-6 Flugzeug-Handbuch
  (Stand August 1943) Ausgabe Dezember 1943            Level Speed: MPH   /   km/h
   348 mph at Sea Level      560 at 0 meters
   410 mph at 20,669'      660 at 6.3 km
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2008, 11:35:04 AM »
Hitech Creations does not to my knowledge use Mike Williams' info. I wouldn't either. He has a reputation for being very biased and selective in his data.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2008, 11:43:23 AM »
Hitech Creations does not to my knowledge use Mike Williams' info. I wouldn't either. He has a reputation for being very biased and selective in his data.

Very biased against 109s. Not so biased against 190s. Odd pattern for a jingoist.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2008, 12:48:53 PM »
Another 190 comparison: Our D-9 matches the slightly low end of average shown here:



One wonders why this biased man has not thrown out any data showing the Dora to exceed 380 mph at sea level.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2008, 01:10:58 PM »
Very biased against 109s. Not so biased against 190s. Odd pattern for a jingoist.

I wouldn't know, or care. I only know him by reputation, that he and "Kurfurst" are opposite sides of the same coin.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline SectorNine50

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2008, 03:14:41 PM »
Die Hard instead of being an bellybutton to BnZ, why don't you post information that you trust in?  Just shouting "you're wrong" only gets you so far.
I'm Sector95 in-game! :-D

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2008, 03:35:10 PM »
So far as I know, the German aircraft that had MW-50 boost do get C3 fuel in AH simply because that was the only fuel they could use (96 octane I think).
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline hlbly

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1013
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2008, 04:19:52 PM »
The AH P-51B has the V-1650-3 engine and racks, and no "air force" in AH has the best fuel available. Ponys and Spits don't get 100/150, the 109's don't get C3 and the Japanese planes have to make due with the piss poor fuel they had. Nice Ami-whine though!
What whine would that be ?

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 04:47:25 PM »
I wouldn't know, or care. I only know him by reputation, that he and "Kurfurst" are opposite sides of the same coin.

My claim is that for some aircraft in AHII the model seems to be based on low average performance numbers, and for others it seems to be based on the best possible performance numbers. I presented charts to this effect. You alleged, and continue to allege, that the data from M. Williams is false/misleading because he is "biased". Presumably you mean biased against Luftwaffe aircraft. But it turns out he presents some unexpectedly high numbers for the performance of the Fw 190 A-5 and D-9. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate for me to ask you how this fits into a presumed pattern of bias against Luftwaffe aircraft, and merely trying to dodge/dismiss the question does nothing to prove your case.

"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 05:12:27 PM »
I have no case to prove. You're the one accusing (if ever so subtly) Hitech Creation of being biased against American planes. Posting Mr. Williams' charts proves nothing, especially since they do not say what you think they say. All the charts you've posted gives performance figures comparable to those in AH for the relevant aircraft.

And by "relevant aircraft" I mean the aircraft specific to AH: P-51B with V-1650-3 engine at 67" map and wing racks. P-51D with V-1650-7 engine at 67" map and wing racks. The RAF versions sometimes used different map settings and were kitted out differently and are thus irrelevant. The higher map settings of 72" and 75" need 100/150 octane fuel which is not modelled in AH and are thus irrelevant.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 05:27:52 PM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2008, 05:38:38 PM »
So far as I know, the German aircraft that had MW-50 boost do get C3 fuel in AH simply because that was the only fuel they could use (96 octane I think).

This is completely wrong. No MW-50 equipped plane (109G-14, K-4, 190D-9 and Ta-152) in AH uses C3 fuel. They use B4 fuel and MW-50 injection. The BMW powered 190's got priority for C3 fuel since that's the only fuel they could use. Late-war B4 fuel is roughly equivalent to allied 100/130 avgas. Late-war C3 fuel is equivalent to 100/150 avgas.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2008, 05:45:03 PM »
Die Hard instead of being an bellybutton to BnZ, why don't you post information that you trust in?  Just shouting "you're wrong" only gets you so far.

Simply because I don't have to. BnZ's information supports Hitech Creations modelling of the relevant aircraft. That you or BnZ are unable to understand that is somewhat annoying. Probably more so to the creators of this game who has to suffer baseless accusations from people who cannot read a chart properly but nevertheless feel qualified to question their plane models.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2008, 06:09:44 PM »
I have no case to prove.

Uh, yeah you do. Your first line of attack was an attempt to dismiss these performance charts because the man who compiled them is allegedly biased. You can't take that back. Now prove it, or at least show that it is vaguely plausible.

You're the one accusing (if ever so subtly) Hitech Creation of being biased against American planes. Posting Mr. Williams' charts proves nothing, especially since they do not say what you think they say.

Subtle? Subtle?!?!?! I take exception to that, I'm never subtle about anything.

I can't know for sure the motivations, but here is my best guess to what is happening. Once again, I'll use the P-51 as my example. The P-51 is consistently one of the most common if not THE most common aircraft in the LW MAs tour after tour. This is in spite of the fact, that the P-51 is rather mediocre in performance under typical MA conditions compared to many aircraft, including the 109 Kurt. One of the best exponents of the P-51 in the game, Steve, has said as much on many occasions. You can't beat people out of the cockpit of P-51s with a stick apparently.

Meanwhile, despite the fact that the 190 D9 and 109 K-4 are arguably both superior in the MA, they haven't eclipsed the Mustang. What is the purpose of giving rare, high-performing, late-war monsters  like the Dora and Kurt ENYs of 15 and 20 respectively except to get more people flying them?

Imagine the nauseatingly incessant sea of P-51s you would see if they performed even a little better. The situation might reach the point where perking the P-51 was unavoidable. But that is not a great option. What percentage of fresh noobs would let their accounts slide if the first thing that happened when they logged in was try to take the P-51D for a spin and "You don't have enough perks for that model" popped up?


Posting Mr. Williams' charts proves nothing, especially since they do not say what you think they say. All the charts you've posted gives performance figures comparable to those in AH for the relevant aircraft.

And by "relevant aircraft" I mean the aircraft specific to AH: P-51B with V-1650-3 engine at 67" map and wing racks. P-51D with V-1650-7 engine at 67" map and wing racks. The RAF versions sometimes used different map settings and were kitted out differently and are thus irrelevant. The higher map settings of 72" and 75" need 100/150 octane fuel which is not modelled in AH and are thus irrelevant.

I posted a whole chart showing P-51 performance variants at 67"....

Second, as Anax said "So far as I know, the German aircraft that had MW-50 boost do get C3 fuel in AH simply because that was the only fuel they could use (96 octane I think)."

Given that, how is it fair to NOT have American planes running on 100/150? Which side do you think was more able to produce large amounts of high-quality fuel in 1945?  :D

And if mid-war G2s can run around at the iffy 1.42 ata, why are P-47Ds not allowed to pull 70'' MAP on emergency power? If Johnson, Gabreski, et al. are to be believed, adjusting them to do so was near ubiquitous in the ETO.

Finally, the very choice of what model is presented in-game can be VERY telling if one chooses to use the most basic or lowest performing variant on one hand, and a rare model running on high-grade fuel under the best possible conditions on the other.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: F6F-5 Performance
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2008, 06:15:22 PM »
Hitech Creations does not to my knowledge use Mike Williams' info. I wouldn't either. He has a reputation for being very biased and selective in his data.

Oh really? Who within the community of aviation historians and writers has made such a statement? I have never heard any such thing. Williams and Sterling have presented us with a valuable resource at their own expense of money and time. Yet, they get criticized... :rolleyes:

Some folks are simply amazing.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.