When not to fight?

[uptown]

Get him to saddle up on you and commit to a gun solution. Skyrock told me once that he'd rather have a guy behind him close,because then he can make sudden moves to throw the guy off his shot. Basically, you try to get the guy to over-shoot, then jump in behind him and Blam! Start a scissors and see if he'll go with you.Chop throttle to get him to fly past. It doesn't always work for me, but alot of times it does.

[Oldman731]

This kind of question usually elicits two schools of thought.  

One will be along the lines that this is a game, and no one really dies, so take the fight that comes and don't worry about it.  Of course, usually those replies come from exceptional sticks who will win most of the time in an inferior plane.  I agree with that to a point.

The other school of thought will mention something about immersion and flying smart.  I can agree with that to a point also.

Well put.  Much depends on what you're looking for - mastering ACM, or simulating WWII (...well...something like WWII).  Neither goal is superior to the other, you just need to decide which one is you.

If you happen to pick the first, though, you will not learn much from avoiding any fight (other than how best to avoid a fight).  Entering a fight at a disadvantage necessarily means you will get shot down a lot.  As Murdr suggests, if that starts to wear on you, then ease up on how often you enter fights at a disadvantage.

- oldman

[humble]

There is no right answer to this one. It's all based on individual expectations combined with a prudent read of the tactical realities. As an example way back when my primary ride was a hog I loved spitXVI's and hated the VIII's. The guys in the 8 just were better overall pilots as a whole I think. Now if a spitty was high then I was an aggressive angles fighter and usually could either win or draw vs a high %. The flip side is I gave a lot of respect to the low spit drivers...especially the 9's and the 5's. The thing to understand IMO is if you control the encounter or not. If you dont control the fight then you have 2 options. Be aggressive early and try and force a fight you feel you can win or play wait and see.

As murdr posted elsewhere in respnonse to a few of your films most good pilots in inferior positions have a set of "trap moves" designed to entice a poor response. Normally I can tell who i'm fighting by how they respond early to what I show them. If so then I'll normally look to attack there 2nd or 3rd counter in the sequence. As Murdr said he's going to fly with a defined set of expectations (as do most good pilots) so the key is knowing when to use the change up...

As an example most good E fighters have a great change up bounce. They give you one look and then the 3rd pass or so they totally alter a key aspect and often catch you cross controlled trying to respond to the difference.

To me you fly the gal you brought to the dance. If you took off looking to land then only landing makes a hop successful. If you took off looking for a fight then you fight what you find and take your chances. By and large I'm a blood & bullets type of flier...I wont rtb till the bb's gas, oil or pilot is going...that doesnt mean its right or wrong.

[Anaxogoras]

But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own?  Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior?  Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?

I fly the 109G-6 frequently, and it is outclassed in all categories by a number of aircraft, e.g. Spit VIII and Spit XVI are two big ones.  When I'm flying the inferior aircraft, I approach with caution if I don't see an advantage I can exploit.  I might merge co-e with a Spit16 and if I see an opportunity to do it, I'll blow right on by.  If he chases a wingman will deal with him (and it's pretty funny how many will enter an extended tail chase).  There's really no reason to give someone in a trainer Spixteen a chance to saddle up on your 6 if you can help it.  You're probably in a multi-bandit engagement where keeping your speed up is paramount.  Getting slow in a hot-rod is one thing, in a plane that's a couple years out of its prime it's asking to get picked, ganged, everything.

On the other hand, if it's a real 1vs1 situation, there's no other bandits that you can see in the area and you don't expect any soon, and you have a chance to slug it out, go ahead and try it.

[mechanic]

I'm either shooting, looking to make a shot, or avoiding being shot. Everything else is time wasting between engagements. The only exception is when i have speed to extend and am being attacked by multiples, occasionally i will employ a smart move to reset my options. Mostly plane type does not matter to me in regards to turning ability or such like, all i care about is how many cannon they have.

[BnZs]

If you can piss in the other guy's soup by shooting him down, then by all means do so. If your options have come down to running to deny him a kill, thus giving him an apoplexy and making him quit the game  , then do that.

It is not like your opposition is anything but pixels on a screen anyway. (There are actually no other players in the game besides you Dave. AHII is in fact an elaborately crafted scheme, complete with AIs who can fly in a variety of styles, "trash talk" on 200, AND make broad philosophical posts on the BBS, a scheme whose sole purpose is to get YOU and only you to send them $15 a month.)

[Yenny]

If you can piss in the other guy's soup by shooting him down, then by all means do so. If your options have come down to running to deny him a kill, thus giving him an apoplexy and making him quit the game  , then do that.

I do that to Spit-16, LA7 and it's funny to see them chase me around for 10 minutes while i just make wide turns and come back attackin other stuff. Of course these guys would come in at like 15K trying to get the 190s =p

[PFactorDave]

As murdr posted elsewhere in respnonse to a few of your films most good pilots in inferior positions have a set of "trap moves" designed to entice a poor response. Normally I can tell who i'm fighting by how they respond early to what I show them. If so then I'll normally look to attack there 2nd or 3rd counter in the sequence.

This caught my eye.  I wonder if you might describe in detail what some of these trap moves look like and what they are designed to do.

[Murdr]

This caught my eye.  I wonder if you might describe in detail what some of these trap moves look like and what they are designed to do.

Typically it is a variation of creating a flight path overshoot and converting it into a wingline overshoot.  Though it could also be a rope-a-dope or some other example that I can't seem to come up with at the moment    Regarding the overshoot, I have a lesson package of annotated films here --> http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/files.htm under "barrel roll defense", in case you haven't stumbled across that yet.

I have these diagrams on hand from a previous discussion...



(The screenshots are from 38jvki84.ahf)


Edit: While your at that trainer page I linked to, you might want to check out Spatula's performance app.  It give more detailed turn info than DokGonzo's site.

[CAP1]

I was watching a few films from fights I had earlier today.

One particular film got me to thinking.

I was flying my trusty Ki84, came upon a P51 on the six of a squadmate.  After asking my squadmate if he wanted help, I proceeded to pick the P51 (although he did get my squadmate just a moment before I got him).

Well, PM'd the P51 driver, apologized for the pick.  Explained that I don't like to interrupt a 1vs1 that is so far away from anyone else (like this one was, out over the water.  No other icons in sight) and that my squadmate had asked me to help clear his six.  Well, an amicable conversation ensued.  Shortly after that, I was high near a friendly base and in comes a P51.  Well, he stayed away from me, occaisionally diving on other planes below.  But staying away from me.  At one point he told me that he doesn't fight Ki84s.  Well, he proceeded to make a run at me a couple of times, but always getting out of my reach in fairly short order.  Eventually, he caught me looking in the wrong direction and did something I wasn't expecting.  For a brief time I lost sight of him, he got in behind me, and while I did see him about 1k out and manuevered to get out of his guns, he did manage to clip my tail.  It was a good shot and a good kill.

At any rate, it got me thinking.  He knew his Pony would lose some of its advantages if he got in close and tried to turn with my KI84, so he chose not to.  Nothing wrong with that.  He used his superior speed to eventually get a good shot on me.  But I was wondering, what to do in such a situation when your aircraft has virtually no advantages?BUT SEE, you DO have advantages. your aircraft turns better. keep avoiding. try to gain alt in each dodge. either he'll make a mistake, you'll equalize alts, taking away a bit of his advantage, or he'll leave.

I have noticed that Spit16s give me a problem when most other factors are relatively equal.  A 1vs1 with a face to face merge usually ends badly for me, unless the Spit driver makes a mistake that I am able to exploit.

I even went to Gonzo's comparison site and compare the Spit 16 to my KI84, and sure enough, the Spit16 is pretty much equal or slightly better then my Ki in just about everything.  Usually my Ki84 will have an exploitable advantage in at least one category, but against the Spit16 not so much.

Now, that said, I don't intend to simply avoid fighting Spit16s.  I think fighting them will force me to be more precise with my manuevering and hopefully will eventually beat the noobish mistakes out of me.  Plus they seeem to break apart quite nicely when I do hit them.

But I was wondering how more experienced sticks approach aircraft that are potentially more capable then their own?  Is it purely a matter of go for it and hope your ACM proves to be superior?  Or is the approach much more precise and calculated?

 i actually took down an f4u the other night doing what you describe the pony as doing to you. i REALLY think i caught him not looking up at me, as i think he's a better stick than that.

 when i'm on the recieving end, i generally turn into them, or try to force an overshoot. i'm not very good yet at dealking with high cons, but i try.

[BaldEagl]

I'll fight anything in anything but I'll try to do so in a way that utilizes whatever advantages I have (either my plane's inherent abilities over my opponents or our relative position/E states).  Depending on my familiarity with a particular plane I might be more or less agressive in it.

In the end I always want to fly home and land any kill(s) but I still have a tendency to get sucked into multi-con situations.

The only time not to fight is when I'm bingo ammo, low on fuel, my plane (or pilot) is damaged or the odds are overwhelmingly (4+) against me.