Gamey bombing - From a fighter pilot's perspective

[33Vortex]

As a player (paying customer) who put +90% of my ingame time in Luftwaffe fighters and particularly the 190, the most annoying problems with bombers are:

1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.
2) Bomber guys who fly their whole formation to a target, only to bail out of a perfectly working aircraft (or three) to quickly grab another formation. Denying interceptors guaranteed kills. If this is not gamey I don't know what is. To me it just looks stupid. 
3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns. Admittedly a problem of a lesser degree than the other ones but nevertheless firing all guns simultaneously from a whole formation of bombers represent concentrated firepower which is unreal. Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets. Gunnery is a very respectable skill, those who know how to shoot rather than pull gamey tricks earn points in my book.


Fighter-like behavior is fine with bombers such as the A20 (Boston), Ju88, B25 to some degree and yes even the P38.  Though whenever a formation of Lancasters or B26s start chasing my 190, making defensive sudden steep climbs, diving maneuvers or even a loop, I feel like logging off. It just makes my eyes bleed. You almost never see this from a B17 formation, perhaps it's better modeled? I wouldn't know as I practically never have used one.

Seriously though, my point is that the current FM of some of the bombers ingame allow very unrealistic maneuvers. Granted a pilot about to get shot down would pull some desperate maneuvers, but not in a formation with other planes and he would certainly not commit to a maneuver which means guaranteed structural failure!
Additionally, there should be some incentive to survive your mission whatever a/c you dare to takeoff with. Or else we will continue to see HALO parachuting bomber crews, as well as the retarded kamikaze routine with attack fighters who only focus on target damage (another gamey behaviour).

If people don't give a **** about survival (takes a lot of skill and a decent amount of luck in many situations) please let them... but reward those of us who do. People who don't care about survival most likely don't care about their score anyway. What they care about is results ingame and the game mechanics does not reward survival, it rewards base captures. As long as death or airframe loss is a matter of just losing a few perks and especially when # of fighter kills (or bomb damage) weighs heavier than k/d ratio (or damage/death for bombers), all of this will remain. It seems like kills/time is another important factor in fighter scoring, further promoting quick one-way-ticket sorties.
Now the arrogant bastards of the lot will of course tell me to sod off to some other arena. I will tell you then that it's not about that. It's about me as a fighter guy and paying customer wanting to see the level of gameplay raised. If you want to do that, give the players some incentive to survive and penalize players who simply don't care. (If you take the attitude of "I don't care" you very much rule your own opinion out at the same time.) It's the only way to promote development on a personal level and the game as a whole, regarding tactics and level of skill. If you want to re-create the WW2 aerial fighting, teamwork should be more than hoarding a enemy base in a series of one-way trips to get a base capture. It gets old fast.

Promoting teamwork is to reward successful missions. A feature that can be expanded upon A LOT. I'm sure you're aware of this and I hope you're working on it seeing how Combat Tour was cancelled in favor of general development.

The post was originally not meant to be this long and extensive. It started only with my frustration with the nutjobs who think that they're flying bombers.

If you (HTC) could fix the issues mentioned above, that would improve gameplay tremendously for us fighter guys.

Thanks!

[Karnak]

Lancasters were capable of those kinds of manuevers. The standard response to a nightfighter behind your Lanc was a "corkscrew" to the right or left.  That is a tight, diving turn followed by a tight climbing turn.

Obviously that wouldn't be done while in a daylight formation though.

[33Vortex]

Obviously that wouldn't be done while in a daylight formation though.

Key factor.

Did they do the loop as well? 

[Stampf]

In a game there will be gameyness.  No way around it regardless of the aircraft or vehicle type.  Agree the 'stunts' some guys pull are a bit much and a def. turn off, not to mention the bomb and bails.

I wish the bombers could not run full power all the time like they do.  This is not realistic, and of course the all guns firing formation feature is really tough at times.  I would like to see HTC address those two concerns, but would rather see the pilots just mature alittle and let HTC worry about developing new a/c and features for all of us to enjoy.  The modeling is just one part.  The guys playing the way they do is another whole beast, and for me, the bigger of the probs.  One can overcome the performance of the bomber with patience and tactics, we all know that.  It's the player actions that are the real let down.

.02 in.

[Serenity]

Agreed. Im a BUFF-dweeb myself, and even from our end its gamey. Those who pull these stunts give us a bad name, and honestly rob us of targets by bomb-and-bailing while we bother to fly home. Penalize suicides, reward my landings just a tad more.

[Oleg]

1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.

You have a proof what real WW2 bombers cannt execute such maneuvers? Sure, they didnt it on everyday basis, but it doesnt mean they couldnt do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ546BEps-M

Btw, comparing to real WW2 fighters, our fighter planes can do alot "gamey" things.

IMHO, real problems with bombers are divebombing in heavies, ability to keep formation at full speed and warping drones.

[Rich46yo]

Yes, its all gamey from a dedicated Buff sticks perspective too. Most of us never have flown Buffs in such a manner.

[33Vortex]

Yes Oleg I'm aware that the bombers could be quite nimble without their bomb load and reduced fuel load, a Boeing 707 is a long way from WW2 piston-engine bombers though. I'm just questioning to what degree the bombers could do the maneuvers we see them do ingame such as loops and what looks to be unrecoverable dives at high speeds, and why or when a pilot would carry out such high-risk maneuvers. Risking a plane and it's entire crew without good reason could not only get you killed but probably court martialed if you survived. The game and game developers should, imho, strive to create through game mechanics and player rewards a environment which simulates WW2 combat in a sensible and reasonably realistic way. With that philosophy, realistic flying behaviour should be encouraged and rewarded through game mechanics. Unfortunately that is not always the case currently. FSOs are generally great in that respect, having only one life do wonders to realism and immersion. Some still choose to embark on suicide missions or carry out suicide maneuvers, but it did happen irl too.

Concerning fighters and the gameyness of their flying there would be tons of features that could be added. Engine management is one thing that's practically a no-issue ingame, not to mention navigation. What would be amazing, imho, would be a flight sim that combined the features and realism of FSX WW2 a/c with almost every switch and dial functioning, with the gameplay and flight modeling features of Aces High. The problem would be that most players, or customers if you will, would not play the game since it would be too difficult and the learning curve too steep, disregarding the graphics issue. Graphics is not what makes the game interesting long-term, as AH proves it is the interaction between players and the infinite combinations of different Air Combat situations that do that for us. The competition in AH is murder to anyone new to ACM, adding full-realism a/c and engine management would make the workload impossible for most. In this respect, AH does strike a good balance even though many of us would like (or can't get enough) realism.

I love the game, it has a balance of realism and gameplay like no other but there is plenty of room for improvements. It should be obvious to everyone.

I'm thinking one way to raise the level of teamwork a few notches would be to expand on the mission feature. For example to multiply perk points by a factor derived from # of planes that return safely from a successful mission. Mission goal could be set by mission creator, simply use the current scoring categories fighter, attack and bomber mission types. Now that would promote teamwork, and squads would have their work cut out for them in the MAs. We're also missing a squad scoring that reflect on the teamwork of the squad in a mission-oriented way, aside from just base captures.

Hope that made some sense. The post just got bigger and bigger I have too many ideas...  just trying to help out HTC making the game better and more enjoyable for all!

 

[Bino]

IMHO, if the flight performance and airframe structural limits are modeled as accurately as possible, accurate behavior will follow.  That said, I have to admit that I very rarely see the sort of "Lancstuka" flying that is so obviously silly.  Hats off to the Historically Accurate Bomber Flyers! 

Never thought of this one, Turner, "...Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets."  Anyone here remember the bullet dispersal study that Ogre did back in WarBirds?  He proved, with careful and thorough math, that in RL it would be almost impossible to score hits at the long ranges that are commonplace in our games.

[Yossarian]

33Vortex, for what it's worth, here's my opinion on the topic:

1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.

I do this sort of thing very often in the B-25H, largely because I can, and it's my only practical defence against fighters - many fighters will drop almost whatever they're doing to come kill a B-25, and if their gunnery is even half decent they'll have me down before I get one of my turrets turned in their direction.  This is even more of a factor for the B-25H because it doesn't have formations.

If the plane is capable of such a manoeuver, I'd say it's justified because I think that HTC have modelled the AC very well.

An example of this is my stall fight last night with me in a B-25H vs an F4F.  After the first HO (because it was the only shot I could get on him in the forseeable future, given how manoeuverable the F4F is), I lost some fuel, and a few of my 50 cals, whilst he lost half a wing.  After he came back (and I ran out of 50cal ammo), I had resorted to shooting the 75mm at point blank range until he augured.

The reason I told that thing about the F4F just above was to show that the B-25H is actually quite a manoeuverable AC, especially for its size.

Due to the fact that the Lancaster (or B-17 etc) are capable of carrying out a loop, I'd say it should be allowed, however unless your bomber has fixed guns in the nose I'd say that doing such a thing is largely useless.

2) Bomber guys who fly their whole formation to a target, only to bail out of a perfectly working aircraft (or three) to quickly grab another formation. Denying interceptors guaranteed kills. If this is not gamey I don't know what is. To me it just looks stupid. 

This is possibly the most annoying thing in the game (at least that I can think of at the moment).

3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns. Admittedly a problem of a lesser degree than the other ones but nevertheless firing all guns simultaneously from a whole formation of bombers represent concentrated firepower which is unreal. Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets. Gunnery is a very respectable skill, those who know how to shoot rather than pull gamey tricks earn points in my book.

You've got another good point here, however I doubt any possible 'solution' would be worth the trouble/have that much of an effect.

<S>

Yossarian

[WWhiskey]

leave those bomber drivers alone!! most of the stuff done in most of the aircraft in this game was never done by a live pilot, more than once!! i said it before,kill the ords if you don't like the bombers!! why should HTC make it easy for you to role a base without doing all the preparations necessary? if they are flying from distant bases to kill you , you took to long! as far as
cv's are concerned some of you might not remember, but the ack was increased about tenfold, not that long ago! and it made killing them alot more difficult!
 if you don't want to see bombers bail, don't re-up after they kill you,
 in no war ever in history, did a dead pilot get up in another plane to shoot down some bombers!
 the only thing that could help would be a more isolated tank town group of bases!
 some of the old maps have those. maybe the old tank town could be brought back, maybe in a well isolated area.
being in a tank should be no less difficult than in a plane in that you should always have S.A. check to see if your part of the map has dar, look at the radar, look up! just be cause you cant fly does not mean the air should not be a threat.

[33Vortex]

Yossarian, the B25 has perfectly good reasons for being used the way you use it.

WWhiskey, it would be a much more pleasant discussion if you'd refrain from shouting, it is not necessary to get your point across.

What I'm after is more realistic flying. Ultimately it's up to the pilot, but imho there should be numerous incentives built into the game to fly realistically. Generally speaking that spells teamwork and coordination. Btw about the bailing issue, one way to counter it would be to make it impossible to bail out of a undamaged a/c. If you really are in a hurry and need to close things down there's always ALT + F4 anyway.

[Oleg]

Yes Oleg I'm aware that the bombers could be quite nimble without their bomb load and reduced fuel load, a Boeing 707 is a long way from WW2 piston-engine bombers though. I'm just questioning to what degree the bombers could do the maneuvers we see them do ingame such as loops and what looks to be unrecoverable dives at high speeds, and why or when a pilot would carry out such high-risk maneuvers. Risking a plane and it's entire crew without good reason could not only get you killed but probably court martialed if you survived.

As long as plane characteristics and structural integrity allows you to do "crazy" maneuvers, you are free to do it. The rules are same for both fighters and bombers. If you think FM of some plane isnt real - prove it.

What kind of "risk" you talking about? Its a game, dammit. Or you trying to say, "risking" a bomber is wrong, but "risking" a fighter is ok? AH fighter pilots performs all sort of crappy/risky/gamey things every time, why it dont bother you? And i dont mean missing features like engine management or so.

btw, I am fighter pilot.

[LilMak]

As bad as I get whacked for my bomber killing technique (or lack there of), I don't think the bomber guns should be messed with. Bombers need to know that they have SOME defense against fighters. So don't mess with the guns IMO.

The ability of formations to do the impossible drives me nuts though. Not so much from a maneuvering standpoint but from a speed standpoint. IMO, if you take the formation option from the hangar, speeds should be 90% of the bombers max level  speed in order to maintain that formation. If that speed is exceeded, the drones should be lost. As it stands right now, drones have to exceed their limitations to maintain the formation with a leader that has the throttle firewalled. This is especially true in any maneuvering situation. IMO, this (by itself) should at least slow the "stuka" problem in formation flight because if you nose over and exceed that 90% threshhold you just lost 66.6% of the bombs in your formation. Any lone bomber, however, should be able to do whatever the aircraft can handle as far as speed and maneuvering capabilities are concerned. This might add a level of immersion which shouldn't be too intensive and require some creative piloting on the part of the hard core bomber pilots without crippling them by making their guns less lethal.

I also like the idea of limiting the the ability of Norden equipped bombers to only be able to drop from the internal bombardier position.

[Serenity]

kill the ords

So, you just want to make me fly a few miles farther to kill you? Fine by me.  Ive done sorties that run almost the entire length of the map and thought nothing of it. I dont mind moving another 20 miles behind the lines. Hell, it gives me more time to get my B-17s that much higher! And it will do the same for any dweeb gaming the bomber.