Gamey bombing - From a fighter pilot's perspective

[Shooter503]

OK i know im stepping into this late but having ridden in the door of a UH 60 Blackhawk on many occasions i feel I have some knowledge of what I am about to say.


I do not want to be the waisit gunners navigator or radio man on any bomber preforming a role or loop in the 1940's They did not have near the safety equipment that exits today. whats more i admire the nerve of the pilots in WW2 on all sides that had the nerve to fly straight and level into a fight believing in the team the whole way. 
Just my 2 cents.

[Halo46]

 if you don't want to see bombers bail, don't re-up after they kill you

If heavy bombers fly at the altitudes they are designed for, the dead fighter pilot would not be able to get back up to them before they were out of range. Fighter bases under attack could refuel and rearm or scramble extra aircraft if needed/or if they were available. An attacking bomber force could not. The only reason a downed fighter could get back up to you would be they either up an Me 163, you are at low altitude, or you are flying circles bombing specific targets unlike the carpet bombing that would have been used because of the inaccuracies of bomb sighting equipment. Either way your argument fails. I know several dedicated buff drivers, for them the entire mission is what is fun. The use of escorts increases the likelihood of you making it home exponentially. Many pilots are more than happy to provide escort if you ask on country.

When I fly buffs, though rarely these days, I would put it in auto climb after bomb drop and fend off fighters. I would not think to stick stir a heavy bomber or fly acrobatics the airframes were not designed for. The dump and jump was one of the reasons I left my old squad. I think it is repulsive. You expect to see this behavior from the kids, but there is too much of it occurring to statistically validate that is who is doing it.

In essence, what you are saying is since the fighter base you attacked is close to the fight and defending pilots can re-up and reengage, you should be able to bail to get back to the fight and drop the fighter hangars as soon as possible by not having to make the return trip home first. You know, I do not see pilots of fighter/bombers fly with this mentality. I have yet to see a P-51 conduct a jabo sortie and bail to up another jabo sortie without returning to base first. I guess Forest could say it best, "Gamey is as gamey does."   

[WWhiskey]

If heavy bombers fly at the altitudes they are designed for, the dead fighter pilot would not be able to get back up to them before they were out of range. Fighter bases under attack could refuel and rearm or scramble extra aircraft if needed/or if they were available. An attacking bomber force could not. The only reason a downed fighter could get back up to you would be they either up an Me 163, you are at low altitude, or you are flying circles bombing specific targets unlike the carpet bombing that would have been used because of the inaccuracies of bomb sighting equipment. Either way your argument fails. I know several dedicated buff drivers, for them the entire mission is what is fun. The use of escorts increases the likelihood of you making it home exponentially. Many pilots are more than happy to provide escort if you ask on country.

When I fly buffs, though rarely these days, I would put it in auto climb after bomb drop and fend off fighters. I would not think to stick stir a heavy bomber or fly acrobatics the airframes were not designed for. The dump and jump was one of the reasons I left my old squad. I think it is repulsive. You expect to see this behavior from the kids, but there is too much of it occurring to statistically validate that is who is doing it.

In essence, what you are saying is since the fighter base you attacked is close to the fight and defending pilots can re-up and reengage, you should be able to bail to get back to the fight and drop the fighter hangars as soon as possible by not having to make the return trip home first. You know, I do not see pilots of fighter/bombers fly with this mentality. I have yet to see a P-51 conduct a jabo sortie and bail to up another jabo sortie without returning to base first. I guess Forest could say it best, "Gamey is as gamey does."   

i don't think your getting the point, if you fly them up high, say 25000 or more,(by the way i used too do this all the time) you get chewed on for porking!
 the fighters want you low enough so the can shoot you down,but please don't shoot back, or steer the plane more than 2 degrees, they would rather just have you leave it on auto, while going too get a beer or something,
o and you can,t bomb anything but factories, no hangers, or tanks!(personally i like to bomb planes on the rearm pad from about 6000 feet) i very rarely ever bomb from outside the plane tho, if its got an f-6 sight i use it, yet i can hit any target at most any alt.from 500 feet for shoreline bases or CV,s all the way up to 33500 feet (as high as lancs will go )for fields and factories! the only thing i think of as special that i do in my lancs is the high stall turn, just like they do them in the movie Dam Busters, and i am pretty sure they were historically accurate, but i bet if you saw me do one you would think i was showing off, in my lanc's

 in essence , the bomber pilot is the big joke of it all, yet without us, alot of players wouldn't have landed that first
  HOST: 88934276 landed 3 kills in a stearman of I'm a newb!
 there wouldn't be all that cannon fodder for those pilots that cant find anybody else to engage, and there wouldn't be anything for the newbs who don't pick up fighters right away but still want to fly, god knows you cant just up a tank in the game if your a newb without becoming cannon fodder yourself, for, o, a month, or so, till someone tells you how to see those little spots out there down that long small hole,( up arrow zoom keys) lol
 and yet the only complaint a bomber pilot has is the fighter who you just shot down, is on your six again, and again while you are trying to get home, especially if you have flown a few sectors into enemy territory!

[Speed55]

I like the idea of limiting speed when in formation mode, just because it makes sense.

I posted a long time ago, that barrel rolls and loops in heavy bombers should have a negative effect on the gunners, knocking them out, or throwing them way out of position, or killing them.

I have no problem with a bomber pilot using rudder to keep the tail towards the fighter, or using other defensive tactics.
When he pulls the trigger to fire all, the lazer guns look kinda cheesy.

 If they could be randomized where the guns you aren't in shoot in some sort of short staggered delay pattern, and they hit the target within a box and not in the same spot,  it wouldn't be so bad.

I mean it's like 12 guys from 3 different bombers going.. 1.. 2... 3... fire, and they share the same brain and can all hit the exact same target at the exact same time, every time. 

[SmokinLoon]

I wont ever "chew" on a bomber pilot for going over my team's airfield at 20k+ alt.  That is the way it should be done.  There are plently of planes that A> climb like a fart in a cold room (see 109G-2/G-14/K4) or B> move fast enough to intercept a bomber formation (see 190D-9, Jug, Typhoon, etc).

I will chew on pilots for dive bombing their Lancs, or performing a snap turn in their B24's at 1000ft.  Seeing either of those is quite the boner killer because I know their is someone abusing the game and not playing the sim and I'm the target.

[BaldEagl]

I didn't read all the posts but back when I was flying Lancs all the time I'd often dogfight in a single Lanc at altitude (over 20K).  I'd do it after I was down to one plane and usually was bingo ammo.

The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents.  I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.

Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part.  I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay. 

That said, I don't think formations should be able to do this without losing both drones to proxie kills.

[Rich46yo]

A Lanc? Dogfighting a mustang? At 20,000'? In real life? During daytime?

The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents.  I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.

Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part.  I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay. 

[SmokinLoon]

I didn't read all the posts but back when I was flying Lancs all the time I'd often dogfight in a single Lanc at altitude (over 20K).  I'd do it after I was down to one plane and usually was bingo ammo.

The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents.  I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.

Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part.  I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay. 

That said, I don't think formations should be able to do this without losing both drones to proxie kills.

LOL.  Come on... be serious.  There are so many things that are able to be done in this AH2 simgame that were in no way shape or form able to be done in WWII... and vise-versa.  Just becasue some guys programmed a simgame to do something doesnt mean it could be done in the actual plane.... LOL!    Seriously...  you ought to know better.

[yodad585]

So, you just want to make me fly a few miles farther to kill you? Fine by me.  Ive done sorties that run almost the entire length of the map and thought nothing of it. I dont mind moving another 20 miles behind the lines. Hell, it gives me more time to get my B-17s that much higher! And it will do the same for any dweeb gaming the bomber.

dude your right lol i think that way to kill the ord and pretty soon i will be flying at 30k and you fighters and whatever wont be touching me or my sortie partners, 

[Chalenge]

Somebody got owned by lame bombers and came here to whine about it.

0.33 for the OP.

I dont like it anymore then you do Vortex but we also have snap-rolling Bostons and rocket-assisted RAMs and dive bombing Lancs and all manner of foolishness far more lame then this.

[Dadsguns]

Somebody got owned by lame bombers and came here to whine about it.

This just about sums it all up, move along, nothing else to see here......

[33Vortex]

What I see is too much blaming, self-righteousness and hybris going on, on these boards and indeed ingame too. Very little constructive critizism and friendly discussions, if any. Intelligent discussions? Very very few.

Why can that be? Too many people with a need to prove their self importance.


I'm off for a bath, spent 14 hrs at work today go figure.

[FiLtH]

  If a fighter is attacking the 6 of a B17 formation, the likely guns that would fire are the upper,lower and tail turrets depending on alt. If it was a high attack, the upper and tail of bomber would fire, and from turrets. Any bomber that had a shot would fire. Realistically some gunners may be better than others, but since most attacks are done rather carelessly in here by fighters, even an average trained gunner would likely score hits.

  Remember many people in fighters in here hang back at 1000 and lob rounds at the bombers getting hits as well. The main thing to remember is we have much more practice at gunnery than do the real life guys of WW2 had. That and its a video game. Some of the lead I take in shooting at an attacking fighter in a high 6 slashing attack is as much as 8 wingspans at times. Its not so much the lazer affect, as it is practice and knowing how to aim the guns in this game. Practice due to hours of playing. I often wonder how a tank can kill my tank at long range while im full speed 90 degree deflection...practice. The guy does it alot.

  If you do something enough, you cant help but get better at it.

[BaldEagl]

The Lancaster was an extremely dependable and maneuverable aircraft
- LANCASTER AT WAR, Advantage Media Group

The RAF Bomber Command crews loved the aircraft because it was maneuverable and could take a heavy punishment.

Strengths:

Highly maneuverable (for an aircraft of that size), enabling it to outmaneuver German nightfighters.
- http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/avrolanc.html

The Lancaster's greater maneuverability and bomb load, much greater than any other Allied bomber, meant they were used more and more on the major and better defended targets.
- http://users.tpg.com.au/adsls7ld/planes.html

The tail gunner fulfilled a second role as a lookout for attacking enemy fighters, particularly in British bombers operating at night. As these aircraft operated individually instead of being part of a bombing formation, the bombers' first reaction to an attacking night fighter was to engage in radical evasive maneuvers such as a corkscrew roll; firing guns in defense was of secondary importance.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_gunner

In this scene Canadian Lancaster pilot Neil Fuller is portrayed in the opening round of a Berlin bombing run. Here he is guiding his Lancaster “Fearless Freddie’s Office” through the perils of a so called “Milk Run” in early 1944, just before D Day. Hundreds more Lancasters can be seen emerging from the darkness, approaching the target area which will soon be glowing as bright as day from the fires below.

A typical bombing run would start at about 20,000 to 25,000 feet and Neil would start a slow decent toward the target to pick up speed. As soon as the bombs were on their way, he would immediately turn 90 degrees and dive to about 6,000 feet in an attempt to avoid enemy fighters waiting on the far side of the target area. In this scene ME110 fighters can be seen approaching from the rear and Neil’s gunners are applying their best effort to discourage them. One more ME110 is commencing a flair drop to illuminate the entire area for other fighters.

The famous and highly successful Avro Lancaster depended on stealth and the cover of night to carry out its mission. If they were discovered, the .303 cal machine guns on board were often no match for the 20mm cannon of the opposing fighters. The Lancasters would approach the target in several streams of many aircraft. Often over 1000 aircraft would pass over the target within a 15 minute time period
- http://www.aircraftbuzz.com/Aircraft-Buzz/Gallery-cat.asp?media1Id=801

[CAVPFCDD]

I believe it's been mentioned but i'll say it again, it's a game, it does a great job of being fairly acurate to WWII, but it's a game none the less and there will be people trying to find loop holes and taking advantage of flaws and just playing it their way and ruining it for the pureists who would like to play the game the way it was meant to be played.