Author Topic: K4=G10  (Read 4988 times)

Offline fudgums

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K4=G10
« on: November 25, 2008, 10:10:49 AM »
Ok I did search but couldnt get a clear answer.

Is the 109K4 and 109G10, the same plane. Except for the 30mm cannon in the K4
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Offline Karnak

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2008, 10:38:09 AM »
The old AH G-10, yes.  In reality, no.

You'd have to ask a Bf109 expert for al the differences, but I do know the Bf109K-4 was cleaned up and had improvements over the G series.

The Bf109G-10 also, as I recall, had a couple of different engines, one of which it shared with the K-4.  Even with that engine it was significantly slower at alt, IIRC.


The Bf109K-4 also entered service about a month before the Bf109G-10 and that is why I don't think we need the Bf109G-10 in AH.

A Bf109G-6AS or Bf109G-14AS would be very nice to have though.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:41:04 AM by Karnak »
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Offline CAVPFCDD

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2008, 10:49:28 AM »
The G-10 was an attempt to match the proven Bf 109 G-6/G-14 airframe with the new and more powerful DB 605D engine with minimal disruption of the production lines. Despite what the designation would suggest, it appeared in service after the G-14 and somewhat (WTF wikipedia, no word here, is it before or after the k4 lol)the K-4 in November 1944. Early production G-10s used fuselages taken from the G-14 production lines, this was probably a source of confusion as many authors still believe many G-10 were based on recycled G-series fuselages. The most recognizable change was the standardized use of the "Erla-Haube" clear view canopy. Some 2,600 G-10s were produced from about October 1944 until the war's end. The Bf 109 G-10, AS-engined G-5s, G-6s and G-14s as well as the K-4 saw a refinement of the bulges covering the breeches of the cowl mounted MG 131, these taking on a more elongated and streamlined form, barely discernible on the upper sides of the cowl panels, as the large engine supercharger required a redesign of the cowling.


Series production started in August 1944 with the K-4 model, due to changes in the design and delays with the new DB 605D powerplant. The K-4 was the only version to be mass produced.[83]


Externally the K series could be identified by changes in the locations of the radio equipment hatch,[84] which was moved forward and to a higher position between frames four and five, and the filler point for the fuselage fuel tank, which was moved forward to a location between frames two and three. In addition the D/F loop was moved aft to sit between frames three and four on the top fuselage spine and a small circular plate above the footstep on the port side of the fuselage was deleted. The rudder was fitted as standard with a Flettner tab and two fixed tabs although some rare examples were not fitted with the fixed tabs. All K-4s were to be fitted with a long retractable tailwheel (350 x 135 mm) with two small clamshell doors covering the recess when the tail-wheel was retracted.

The wings featured the large rectangular fairings for the large 660 x 190mm main wheels. Small wheel well doors, originally planned for the G series, were fitted to the outer ends of the wheel bays, covering the outer wheels when retracted. These doors were often removed by front-line units. The ailerons were fitted with small, adjustable trim tabs. The radio equipment was the FuG 16ZY with an antenna mast fitted under the port outer wing and FuG 25a IFF as well as the FuG 125 Hermine D/F equipment. Internally the oxygen bottles were relocated from the rear fuselage to the right wing.[85] Flettner tabs for the ailerons were also to be fitted to serial production aircraft to reduce control forces, but are only seen on photos of later production aircraft.

Armament of the K-4 consisted of a 3 cm MK 108 engine-mounted cannon (Motorkanone) with 65 rounds, and two 13 mm MG 131s in the nose with 300 rounds each although some K-4s were fitted with the MG 151/20 as the Motorkanone.[86] Additional Rüstsätze, or equipment kits, such as a 300 liter drop tank (R III), bombs up to the size of 500 kg (R I), under wing 2cm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon gondola pods (R IV) or 21cm Wfr.Gr. 21 rockets (as on the Gustav models) could be carried after minimal preparations; the latter two however were rarely used, but there is evidence that III./JG 26 were almost completely equipped with K-4s which were fitted with R IV. In addition there were problems with the 3 cm MK 108 Motorkanone:

The 30mm cannon were extremely potent weapons, but they had a tendency to jam, and apparently all of the K-4s supplied to III./JG 26 were also equipped with 20mm-guns in the hated underwing tubs. Uffz. Georg Genth's regular aircraft was a G-10, but on occasion he flew a K-4. He preferred the G-10 as a dogfighter, as the K-4's bulky armament sharply reduced its manouevrability.[87]

Power was provided by a Daimler-Benz DB 605DM (early models) of 1800 PS output and later the DB 605DB/DC powerplant with 1850/2000 PS output.[88] A wide-chord, three bladed VDM 9-12159 propeller of 3 meter diameter, optimized for high altitudes then converted this output into thrust.[89]

Deliveries began in mid-October 1944. 534 examples had been delivered by the Messerschmitt A.G., Regensburg by the end of November 1944,[90] and 856 by the end of the year.[91] Regensburg delivered a total of 1593 by the end of March 1945, after which production figures are missing. With such a high rate of production, despite continuous heavy fighting, by the end of January 1945 314 K-4s — about every fourth 109 — were listed on hand with the 1st line Luftwaffe units. Ultimately it was intended to equip all Bf 109 units with the 109K, which marked the final stage of 109 development before the jet age.[92]

The Bf 109 K-4 was the fastest 109 of world War II, reaching 715 km/h (445 mph) at 7,500 m altitude; improved propellers were being developed when the war ended which would boost the speed to 727 km/h (452 mph)[93], and 741 km/h (460 mph) was expected with a swept-back propeller design.[94] Rate of climb was outstanding, up to 4,820 ft (1,470 m)/min at 1.98 atm[93] and 4,525 ft (1,380 m)/min at 1.8 atm.[citation needed] With such improvements in performance, the Bf 109 remained comparable to opposing fighters until the end of the war. However, the deteriorating ability of the thousands of novice Luftwaffe pilots by this stage of the war meant the 109's strengths were of little value against the numerous and well-trained Allied fighter pilots.


Work cited wikipedia

well i dunno if any of that helps at all, they do seem like they are very very very similar since they were produced around the same time.

i'll consult my encyclopedia of aircraft a little later when i have the time
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:53:24 AM by CAVPFCDD »
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 11:21:43 AM »
From Bf 109 F, G, & K Series by Prien and Rodieke:

Quote
Externally, the K-4 differed little from some G-10s.  The engine installation of both versions was identical.  The K-4 also had the new, wide bladed VDM 9-12159 propeller and the deeper FO 987 oil cooler, as well the two side fairings to accommodate the larger crankcase of the DB 605D.  Like the G-10, MW-50 power boost was standard equipment on the K-4, and as a result the complete engine designation was DB 605DM.  In addition the K-4 was built with radiator cutoff valves like those which had been retrofitted to limited numbers of the F-Series aircraft in 1941.

The cockpit area, too, was virtually unchanged from that of the G-10.  The K-4 exhibited the various known styles of the so-called "agglomerations," the riveted-on fairings behind the bulged engine cowling.  The K-4 received the Erla-Haube as standard equipment and the antenna mast was often dispensed with; in this case the aerial was attached to the fuselage spine in the usual manner...

The filler point for the main fuel tanks was moved forward to a location between Frames 2 and 3--as always on the left side of the fuselage.  Conversely the DF loop was moved aft and installed between Frames 3 and 4.  The round sheet-metal plate over the footrest behind thee wing root was deleted on the K-4.  The radio equipment access hatch was also moved forward and was located between Frames 4 and 5 in a somewhat higher position than before.  The hatch is often depicted with a sloped upper edge, but this was in fact horizontal, while the bottom edge sloped slightly to the front.

The enlarged tail unit was a standard fit on the K-4, and in most cases the aircraft's rudder featured the Flettner tab as well as the two fixed tabs; however, there were rare examples which did not received the fixed tabs.  In general all K-4s were supposed to receive the long tailwheel, which was intended to be retractable.  The tailwheel size was 350x135.  A few K-4s were nevertheless fitted with the short tailwheel of the G-6.  Those aircraft with the long, retractable tailwheel were fitted with two clamshell doors to cover the tailwheel recess.

The wing of the K-4 had the large, rectangular fairings for the 660x190 mainwheels, and externally was almost indistinguishable from the that of the G-10 series.   There were several differences, however.  The ailerons of the K-4 were fitted with small inset adjustable trim tabs.  It was also planned to introduce the small mainwheel well doors similar to those which had been planned for the earlier Bf 109G.  These welll doors were often removed by the front line units.  Installation of the antenna mast for the FuG 16zy below the left wing was standard.  One change not externally visible was the relocation of the oxygen bottles from the rear fuselage to the right wing.

Armament of the K-4 consisted of an engine mounted MK 108 cannon, which by now was installed on the production line, as well as two MG 131 machine-guns above the engine.  There were aircraft, however, which were delivered with an MG 151/20 engine-mounted cannon.  Radio equipment as similar to that of the G-10, with the FuG 16zy and 25a as well as the Peilrufanglage direction finding (DF) equipment.
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Offline CPW

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 09:51:21 PM »


Not only K4,but also the 30mm nose gun G-10/U4 produced by WNF. You can read more about G-10s and K-4 in Japo's books.

http://www.japo.eu/products.php?cat=4

I take some paragraphs here:


A note in an official list of Bf109 models of 2nd August 1944 documents the fact, as it described the Bf109G-10 as "Bastard Flugzeug der Fertigung Erla". The new model was to be developed by Erla as an independent design,not connected with the on-going development of Bf109G and K. Reports of the Bf109G and K program(run by Regensburg) therefore did not mention the G-10 model.



The first Bf109G-10 were actually made by Erla, and manufactured by the company from September 1944 until the end of war, the company becoming the largest manufacturer of the model. The mother branch in Regensburg concentrated on Production of the new Bf190K-4. Despite that, a small batch - numbering 121 aircraft(the number quoted varies from 120-123 machines)- of the Bf 190G-10 was made between October 1944 and January 1945. It is not quite clear why, possibly due to a temporary surplus of DB605D engines, which could not be installed in Bf109K-4 due to insufficient readiness, or the capacity of its production lines. The engines were consequently quite naturally adapted to the Bf109G-14/AS airframes then being produced. Features of both versions can be found on Regensburg's G-10s and the planes differed from those made by Erla. The "surplus" of DB605D engines was soon solved(full-scale production of the Bf109K-4 started) and the last three G-10 aircraft were made in Regensburg in January 1945.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:28:30 PM by CPW »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 07:31:22 AM »
Number of G-10s produced (neubau)

Erla - 1515
MttR - 177
WNF - 356

Offline CPW

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2008, 05:13:17 AM »
More about Bf 109G-10 manufactured by Erla and WNF.

The Bf 109G-10 was not a result of standard development of the fighter, but rather a result of urgent demand for the highest number of powerful fighter aircraft possible. In mid-1944, the DB 605D engine was completed after a prolonged development, an anticipated unit for the Bf 109K. As development of the new model suffered from constant delays. it became obvious in early summer 1944 that Bf 109K serial production would not begin in any foreseeable future. Moreover the Bf 109K featured numerous changes as compared to earlier models and thus problems and delays could be expected when launching serial production. As the pressure to manufcature and deliver higher number of aircraft was strong, any fall in production was not acceptable. On the other hand there was a possibility to install the advanced DB 605D engine in the existing Bf 109G airframe (currently the Bf 109G-6 with the MW 50, later designated as G-14) and thus avoid possible complications. This was to present no significant problems as far as the design was concerned, as earlier DB 605A and AS and the new DB 605D differed very little in size and their attachment points were identical. Mating together the existing Bf 109G framework and the new engine would remarkably increase operational performance at all altitudes while maintaining the on-running mass production.

The aforementioned reasons,i.e.,delays in Bf 109K development and easy switch to production of a DB 605D-powered Bf 109 gave rise at the turn of June and July 1944 to a new Bf 109G model powered by the advanced engine. It was designated the Bf 109G-10. Erla Leipzig was assigned to develop the design as the Regensburg branch was fully preoccupied with work on the Me 262 and with designing the Bf 109K. A note in an official list of Bf109 models of 2nd August 1944 documents the fact, as it described the Bf109G-10 as "Bastard Flugzeug der Fertigung Erla". The new model was to be developed by Erla as an independent design,not connected with the on-going development of Bf109G and K. Reports of the Bf109G and K program (run by Regensburg) therefore did not mention the G-10 model.

Erla Leipzig solved problems of the DB 605D installation easily,partly because there were not many. The Bf 109G-14 framework (i.e. the G-6 with the MW 50 system) was used as the base and the design probably drew on experience with the DB 605AS installation in the Bf 109G-10 in early 1944. Changes in internal structure of the aircraft were not necessary; attention therefore focused on the engine. The DB 605D required more space in the lower part than the DB 605AS due to larger covers being required for the camshafts(for larger, more effective oil suction pumps). Erla designers thus broadened the bottom engine cover and afterwards and also re-modelled the top covers. The new cowling was similar in size to that used for DB 605AS, but assembled from differently modelled parts. The position of oil filling changed (it was moved upwards as the tank's volume increase to 50 litres) as also was that of cold start fuel cock (shifted upwards due to installation of an oil circuit steam trap to the engine). Heed was also paid to the port side, streamlined transition between the enlarged engine cowling and fuselage. The original G-6/AS design, with a curved edge was replaced with an almost square panel of improved streamline characteristics. A larger oil cooler, the Fo 987, also had to be installed for the new engine.



Due to installation of amore powerful engine, the wing coolers had to be enlarged as well; the existing ALF 750B(33d㎡) type was replaced with the larger ALF 907C (42d㎡). The coolers thus corresponded with those installed in the Bf 109K-4. This modification was mentioned in a technical directive of 2nd August 1944 and thus was definitely applied on Bf 109G-10s, though not necessarily all of them. It did not show distinctly on the outside, even though the cooler projected from the wing almost unnoticeably more. Those were all modifications of the airframe and the aircraft in general.

The first Bf109G-10 were actually made by Erla, and manufactured by the company from September 1944 until the end of war, the company becoming the largest manufacturer of the model. The mother branch in Regensburg concentrated on Production of the new Bf190K-4. Despite that, a small batch - numbering 121 aircraft(the number quoted varies from 120-123 machines)- of the Bf 190G-10 was made between October 1944 and January 1945. It is not quite clear why, possibly due to a temporary surplus of DB605D engines, which could not be installed in Bf109K-4 due to insufficient readiness, or the capacity of its production lines. The engines were consequently quite naturally adapted to the Bf109G-14/AS airframes then being produced. Features of both versions can be found on Regensburg's G-10s and the planes differed from those made by Erla. The "surplus" of DB605D engines was soon solved(full-scale production of the Bf109K-4 started) and the last three G-10 aircraft were made in Regensburg in January 1945.




Bf-109G10/R6 (Erla)



Erla Leipzig never manufactured the Bf 109K-4 and was involved in the Bf 109G-10 production longest of all the companies. As is was anticipated that the model was to be manufactured by this plant exclusively, numerous design variants occurred on the aircraft. First of all better streamlining of transition from engine cowling to the fuselage on the port side. Instead of a panel with an oval lower edge riveted to the fuselage, designers modified the whole side and the resulting panel was square. Also engine cowlings were brand new design, incorporating different paneling (they were riveted together from sheets of different shapes). The bottom engine cowling was broadened to house the larger covers of the camshafts of the DB 605D. The revisions were better streamlined than the existing two little bulges used on Bf 109G-10, K-4 and G-14/AS airframes made by Messerschmitt at Regensburg, and G-10/U4s manufactured by WNF. (You can also see http://hsfeatures.com/bf109g10type110fw_1.htm)

The modifications described above were characteristic of all G-10s and G-10/R6s manufactured by Erla. We have already mentioned early G-10s of batches 490xxx-491xxx, assembled between September 1944 to January 1945; batched 150xxx, 151xxx and some planeds of the 152xxx block followed from December 1944. Similarly to other companies, Erla’s design department also tried to include all the latest improvements – enlarged tail surfaces, taller tail wheel, modified heating and, from about January 1945, also larger tyres with larger fairings on top of the wing were common on its aircraft. As the subject aircraft was provided with the larger tyres, it was produced in the middle of 151xxx batch. Most G-10s of this batch were equipped with them, though there was an exception, namely that the 491xxx-batch also had them. Thus the aircraft at hand was most likely made in late January or in February 1945.

From November 1944 Erla manufactured some Bf 109G-10s with the R6 modification, equipping them for flying under poor weather conditions. It became the major part of production in January 1945 when 269 G-10/R6s were made as compared the 103 G-10s. APKS 12b autopilot and an advanced FuG 125 radio upgraded the standard equipment. One should keep in mind that the PKS (Patin Kurssteuerung) was far from what we understand as an autopilot today. The device was capable only of maintaining the heading, controlling only the rudderwhile the remaining control surfaces were still handled by the pilot. The “autopilot” weighted 26.5 kg, the “R6” equipment 40 kg in total and therefore had almost no influence upon the flight characteristics of the aircraft. As the G-10/R6 model cannot be determined from its external appearance, we have to rely upon knowing the Werknummer, or at least the batch the plane was made in.

The aircraft was powered by the DB 605D, which in January 1945 was manufactured in the DB 605DB and DC variants. The MW 50 methanol and water injection system was installed but, unlike the Bf109K-4, its tank could not be used to hold fuel.

Worth noting is an oval access hole distinguishable in photographs below the MW 50 filler neck. In the original Bf-109 design it served as an access to the GM 1 tap. Its presence on Bf109G-10s made by Erla (at least on all aircraft documented so far), and some G-14s made by the same company, can be explained in two ways. Either the hole was retained from the original Bf 109G-6/U2 or G-5/U2 airframe (models equipped with GM 1 system), or it was retained during production merely because is had been common to all G-5s and G-6s fitted with the GM 1 manufactured by Erla. Retention of the access hole made no differentce to the airframe or performance and elimination would have required changing the production jigs. The first explanation can be eliminated by the fact that the number of G-5, G-6/U2s was much lower than that of G-10s and G-14s, and therefore relying only on earlier production fuselages would not have satisfied the demand. Therefore the secondd explanation seems much more probable. The access hole was preserved as it was not eliminated from the production drawings during G-10 and G-14 production.

Most Bf 109G-10/R6s were equipped with an antenna mast attached to the canopy. The tail unit was usually of wooden construction. The aircraft also had enlarged tail sufaces with a “C” type rudder with two fixed trim tabs. Hot air piping can be distinguished behind the armour plate in the removable section of canopy. All feature listed aboved could be found on “Yellow 11” from Deutsch Brod.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 08:12:50 AM by CPW »

Offline CPW

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2008, 06:08:22 AM »
Bf 109G-10/U4 (WNF)



WNF started a Bf 109G-10 production line rather late in the war, with first machine leaving the gates of the factory in December 1944. By then Erla Leipzig was operating at full capacity and the parent branch of Messerschmitt at Regensburg was actually closing down the G-10 production line. From the very beginning, WNF manufactured the U4 model (Umbausatze 4) i.e., aircraft with an engine-mounted 30mm MK108 cannon. Starting from early 1944, other Bf109 models manufactured by WNF also were equipped with this armament. Werknummern batch 610xxx to 613xxx were the allotted to G-10/U4s made by WNF. These were the most advanced Bf 109s manufactured by the plant as the anticipated production of Bf 109K-4 airframes never materialized.

The aircraft's design included some of the latest developments in Bf 109G construction. A new heating system, with hot air pipes attached to the removable canopy section, was installed. It prevented icing of the canopy, a serious problem on earlier Bf 109s. Some aircraft of the same batch abandoned at Praha-Letnany airfield were provided with ailerons with controllable trim tabs, originally designed for the Bf 109K-4. These were possibly used on numerous Bf 109G-10/U4s made by WNF simply because the aileron manufacturer only produced the advanced variant. The wooden tail plane, the latest "C" model of rudder with alarger controllable trim tab were standard on the aircraft. The fin and rudder, stabilizer and elevator were thus made of non-strategic, more readily available materials. Undercarriage wheels were also of the latest model, 660x190mm in size with elongated streamlined covers fitted to the upper surface of each wing. The aircraft was equipped with two 13mm MG131 machine-guns and an engine-mounted 30mm MK108 cannon. The latter's installation was marked by apressurized air filling neck cover on the bottom starboard side of fifth fuselage section.

However, some earlier design features also occurred on G-10/U4s made by WNF, such as an older-style tail wheel, and some airframes carried an antenna mast on the opening canopy. Other manufacturers had already installed a taller tail wheel - which improved flight characteristics during take-off and landing - and the antenna mast had been deleted with the aerial attached directly to the spine of the fuselage. The taller tail wheel did not occur on WNF Messerschmitts, probably because its sub-contractor supplying those type of parts never started manufacturing this later variant. Retention of the antenna mast attached to the canopy is then rather unusual, as Bf 109G-10/U4s of earlier 610xxx and 612xxx batched were generally not provided with it. Possibly a new sub-contractor was found of older stock was made use of.

It is evident that WNF design department tried to use as many as possible of the new design features as were available and where the erlevant sub-contractor had not started their production of the part, the earlier style component was installed.

Despite those problems, the most powerful Bf109G model came to existence, equal to the Bf 109K-4 in term of armament and similar also in performance. According to official documents its maximum speed of 690 kmph at 7,500 m was only 20 kmph lower than that of the K-4, basically due to the more streamlined design, with a fully covered undercarriage and a retractable tail wheel, of the latter. The G-10/U4 achieved the speed with the DB 605DM(or DB 605DB), if powered by the DB 605DC its maximum speed climbed up to 695 kmph at 6,300m. All figures were naturally obtained with the use of the MW50 boost.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 08:49:58 AM by CPW »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2008, 07:44:00 AM »
Quote
Armament of the K-4 consisted of a 3 cm MK 108 engine-mounted cannon (Motorkanone) with 65 rounds, and two 13 mm MG 131s in the nose with 300 rounds each although some K-4s were fitted with the MG 151/20 as the Motorkanone.

There is that myth again. :rolleyes: No MG151/15s, or MG151/20s, were fitted in the cowl of the Me109 replacing the MG131s.

Offline moot

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2008, 08:21:27 AM »
Doesnt motorkanone mean engine gun?
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 09:35:18 AM »
Might have misread. :o One sees the MG151 listed as cowl guns so often.

In fact there is a moron on another board right now insisting that the MG151s were cowl mounted. He even insists the MK103 was mounted in production 109Ks. This guy is so far out to lunch that he is even comparing the weight** of the basic 109K to the maximum overload weight of the Spit 24.

** this is the percentage weight increase from the Bf109B to Me109K-4 to the percentage weight increase from the Spit I to the Spit 24.

The 'moter' in moterkanone doesn't mean the weapon was engine mounted.

Offline moot

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Re: K4=G10
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 01:43:47 PM »
I bet I know who that is.. Cant recall his name, but he used to be in our squad, had the craziest LW conspiracy rants..
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