Film: I know I messed up -- but not sure exactly how

[Simaril]

Before anybody says anything, I know I've got enormous weaknesses and a whole lot to learn. Thanks in large part to the many trainers I've worked with ( Hammer, Widewing, Badboy, Murdr...) I don't completely suck, but thanks to my relatively dense head I'm not far above the "soaked in bilge water" zone. My brain just has a very hard time wrapping around the 3 dimensional concepts that are critical to really understanding ACM -- not to mention the whole "judging your gunnery lead" department! Many a time I've almost thrown in the towel....


But anyway, while I try to be moderately aggressive it usually doesn't seem to go well, and I have a hard time finding the lessons I should learn from all those crash and burn mistakes. Here's an example: (and note that I use Track IR, so no view positions are saved in the film.)

http://332nd.org/dogs//simaril/pony_vs_g14_what_wrong_1202.ahf

After 4-5 outnumbered sorties on center island, I got tired of dying so much in angles and decided to go for some energy work. Ended up going high after a set of buffs just for the heck of it -- and that usually turns into an adventure when I'm in a water cooled mustang! As I built alt and got into lateral position for slashing attacks, there was a single 109 that tried to stay with me. I engaged the bombers until the fighter had enough energy to be a threat, then tried for one more pass...

But made the HUGE mistake of throwing in too much rudder too close to the edge in order to get a passing shot on the buffs. I stalled out, flopped around, and had to sacrifice E to regain control. Instead of a slight E advantage with a 109 on weak 6, I now had a strong 109 and no advantage at all.

I extended enough to get some separation twice (or 3?) times, but each time I reversed into what should have been more or less equal positions I somehow turned that into positional disadvantage in short order. The last merge I gave up a high angle shot that the 109 converted into a 1 ping oil hit. Since I was up there after getting tired of repeatedly dying, I decided to go home at that point.

But in essence, I lost the merges and the fights repeatedly -- without actually dying. I want to UNDERSTAND why that happened, and I'd appreciate any constructive thoughts about that.

Thanks!

[abc123]

At 3:18 or on the first merge, after the flight path overshot occurred (by the 109), I would have continued to reverse back into him in the vertical by pulling up and to the left and orienting my lift vector on him (or close to that depending on how I stood in relation to him and how I much or little I was gaining).  Reversing into the vertical would have also helped you get around earlier and store more E.  Seems like you lost aggression after the initial merge there. 

The second merge you just gave him a front quarter belly (ish) shot that he took and got ya.  Should have tried to maneuver a little harder since you were that close.  The lead turn you started was good, but there wasn't enough vertical or horizontal (or both) displacement to make that shot he went for during your lead turn a bad gamble on his part. 

[Kazaa]

Well I'll chim in here, take my words for what they are worth.

To start off, a good stick in the MA will always engage the biggest threat 1st and in this case it was the 109. Take the 109 out of the picture first and then you can pick the lancs apart another time.

It's really hard to see what options you had before the film started, I would be able to give you a better opinion if you could show the film from the 1st time you laid eyes on the 109.

At 2:02 it looks like you would have had enough e to go aggressive and pull into the 109 for guns, or at least pull under and reverse the 109 with the following move. http://www.4shared.com/file/72270332/f42d6be8/Reversal101.htmll (it would be risky but doable if done right)

Last merge: I would have pulled a slow nose low flat turn once I had enough separation to do so, building up a ton of speed before pulling nose on. I would have merged under the 109 with maybe a bit of negative g to avoide the ho shot and pull up into an immelman. What happens from that point on I can't tell you, the balls in the 109s court.

Check out my 4shard account, some real nice ACM footage that might give you a few ideas. http://www.4shared.com/account/dir/9857462/8fbc3482/sharing.html?rnd=30

I hope that helps, I'm off to bed. <S>

[The Fugitive]

Im no pro either, but to me you weren't aggressive enough. I'm more in trouble on the TOO aggressive side, but I too would have signed off on the Lancs at the start of the film and concentrated on the 109. The first pass with the 109 I would have gone back up and over the top, hi yo, or a spiral turn. The 109 "could" have followed, but would he would change what you had either way.  Had I gotten into the second merge where he tagged you, I would have dove under his nose. This forces him into red outs to get a shot, converts E for you to use, and will give you some separation. after the pass watch him and see what he does. If he hard turns back into you (burning E) go on an easy spiral again to get him in front of your 3-9 line and make another pass. Rinse and repeat.

I get too aggressive, I'm in the fight to win, Im not here to play games, and "extend" and "reset" the fight. More often than not it gets me killed, but Im ok with that, the fights all Im after.... tho getting the wins is pretty kool too    To me, your fight looked like you where to worried about getting dead. Fly a little closer to the edge. Sure it gets you killed now and then, but on the other hand it gets you some Kills too.


"Disclaimer" All of the above was written by a mediocre cartoon pilot. 

[dtango]

Howdy Simaril:

I’m out of town for Thanksgiving and have some time to so I downloaded AH on my laptop and took a look at your film.  Here are my observations for what it’s worth.  We’ll focus on the two merges you attempted against the Bf 109G-14.


First Merge at 3:00



At 3:00 you engage in your first merge.  The Bf 109 is on your six.  You have about a +30mph speed advantage and at a D 1.0k distance away.  You pull up into a vertical turn to reverse.  Your first merge attempt results in an angles disadvantage at the merge.  Let’s dissect why this happened.  There are two major factors.

1) You didn’t have enough initial separation for the turn you’re performing
Starting with a bogey at your six o’clock means you’re already at an angular and positional disadvantage unless you have enough maneuver room.  Of course you should try to not have the bogey there to begin with but you already know that.  Once there if you are going to try and maneuver then you need to have enough separation.

A cardinal rule of air to air maneuver is that the only way another aircraft can get shot down in a turn is if the attacker is able to turn inside the defender.


 
Let’s look at a specific case of where we have two aircraft at same turn performance (radius and rate) but with the attacker behind the defender.


 
If the attacker was right up on the exact same position as the defender, theoretically since the airplanes have the same turn performance there is no way the attacker could turn inside the defender and get lead for a shot.  However separate the two by a little distance and you can see in the diagram where the separation creates space and angles for the attacker to turn inside the defender now.  So separation distance is one of the factors that allow a trailing aircraft to turn inside a defender.

To negate this positional advantage, the defender in this situation must have enough separation from the attacker before initiating maneuver.  With enough separation the defender has enough room to maneuver to get around the circle before the attacker can get into a position to turn inside the defender. 

The question of course is how much separation is needed before you turn back into the attacker.  In short it needs to be enough turning room for you to make your way around the circle and face the attacker.  A rule of thumb is for the separation distance to be no less than one turn diameter.  For the turn you were executing which was about a rough average of 220 mph TAS at 2 G’s that equal’s a turn diameter of 3733 feet.  This would equate to at least a D 1.2K+ distance.  You started the reverse at 1.0K which was almost a thousand feet too short.

Don’t take this to mean that you never should reverse back when you’re less than one turn diameter separated from an enemy.  You can and sometimes you have no choice.  Just realize when you do that you’ll be at an angles disadvantage already at the merge so you’ll have to plan the follow-up maneuver sequences appropriately.

2) You didn’t maximize your turn performance
In your vertical reverse back into the 109 you entered your vertical turn at Point 1 at 255 mph IAS, 0-flaps, and MIL power.  This is actually an optimum condition which is about corner velocity for the P-51D at 50% fuel (your Mustang was about the same weight).  Here’s an old chart I did for the P-51D regarding corner speeds a long time ago (back in AH1).  Though outdated I assume that it still representative.



Inexplicably as you enter into the turn you chop your throttle a few seconds later and your airspeed is down to 175 mph IAS at Point 2.  A fundamental concept to remember:  maximum turn performance occurs at corner velocity.  People often mistake that the slower you go the better your turn performance.  In actuality the slower you go below corner speed, the worse your turn radius and rate gets.  Here’s an EM chart posted by Badboy that illustrates the concept:



As you can see turn rate and radius gets worst for the P-51 the slower below corner speed you turn.  Chopping throttle was the last thing to do in your case because you wanted to have as much thrust and speed through the vertical turn as possible because the speed you started the turn at was already at corner and you were going to bleed E as you continued through the turn.  Cutting throttle both slowed you down and also deprived you of countering the heavy energy bleed in the vertical turn.  In fact you left your throttle chopped until about Point 3.

2ndly instead of a turn in the oblique you executed it purely in a climbing vertical which means gravity is working against you for part of the turn.  We’ll visit this concept a bit more in the analysis of your second merge.

The end result in your first merge attempt is that the combination of turning without enough initial separation and turning at well below corner speed ensured that as you came around for the merge you were already at an angles disadvantage.

I’m out of time at the moment and will post analysis for the 2nd merge as well as some other general thoughts when I can.  In short you did much better with the 2nd merge but just got hit with a low probability frontal snapshot.

Hope this was worth a light bulb or two!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[mechanic]

Split the turn half way and go into a rope climb, spiral or otherwise. At the worst the attacker will climb with you and get you, or best the attacker will try to follow you and burn more E trying to force a shot, leaving themself hanging. Sometimes being aggressive can mean mean flying Defence aggresively, eg. risking that the enemy wont have the 5mph needed to get his guns on you at the top.
 
Dont also ignore the fact that a 109 owns a p51 in almost any situation.

[trotter]

Sometimes being aggressive can mean mean flying Defence aggresively, eg. risking that the enemy wont have the 5mph needed to get his guns on you at the top.

Yes well said.

[Simaril]

Thanks for the help guys! Appreciate everyone's input.

I'm going to have to take some serious time looking at the film and your comments, Tango. Thanks for the detailed write up! There's an awful lot of meat in there, and I have a feeling I'll be learning some new concepts to apply.

And Bat, I know exactly what you mean. Lately been doing a lot of that kind of thing, because I think that's the only way I'll get a feel for reading my opponents. Of course, like with any skill things are awfully wobbly at the beginning! In fact, the last of the sorties that made me decide to go for a higher alt fight was almost exactly the situation you describe. I was at maybe 3K over center island in a Hurri IIC (last gasp desperation for down low fighting!), and saw a 109 coming low. I decided to try to drag him up and hammerhead, but I misjudged his E -- and while I was in "See the Pinata!" mode he popped up from the far side of the merge and blasted me. Oh, welll......but I realized that it can be effective to dive below the alt at which the target can pull over the top, kinda splitting his half loop curve. Gunna try that next time.

[dentin]

------SNIP------
 
Dont also ignore the fact that a 109 owns a p51 in almost any situation.

Ah-ha!, Grasshopper...you admit there are "situations" where a 109 will NOT own a p51.    Hmmm, wonder what those "situations" might be? Howzabout a small dissertation( oxymoron, eh) expanding your assertion?  (not including driver proficiency)   That oughtta keep ya busy for a while...AND smooth the ruffled feathers of the p51 cartoon pilets.   

[mechanic]

Well, if you take out Energy advantages then i would say the only advantages the P51D has are effective-at-range firepower and great big old flaps. The best chance of beating a co-alt late model 109 would probably be using the barrel roll defence after forcing the 109 to chase you or dive and attack you.
 Co-alt and Co-E vs a G14 you are in big trouble unless the G-14 is very green, It's that simple. You can beat the pilot using tricks if you are lucky, but when you get low and slow on the deck the pony is toast.

I had some really good fights P51-D vs 109G14 with Klauss in the da last week. Results:

P51(me) lost to G-14(Klauss) about 6 -1

G14(me) beat G-14(Klauss) about 5 - 1


The single time i won in p51 was from a BnZ style reversal snapshot after a low flat merge in the p51 vs high loop by G14.
The single time klauss beat me in a G14 vs G14 i put down to expert gunnery on his part coupled with decent piloting.

just goes to show how unlikely the p51 is to win vs a g14, i would say.

[dentin]

Well, if you take out Energy advantages then i would say the only advantages the P51D has are effective-at-range firepower and great big old flaps. The best chance of beating a co-alt late model 109 would probably be using the barrel roll defence after forcing the 109 to chase you or dive and attack you.
 Co-alt and Co-E vs a G14 you are in big trouble unless the G-14 is very green, It's that simple. You can beat the pilot using tricks if you are lucky, but when you get low and slow on the deck the pony is toast.

I had some really good fights P51-D vs 109G14 with Klauss in the da last week. Results:

P51(me) lost to G-14(Klauss) about 6 -1

G14(me) beat G-14(Klauss) about 5 - 1




The single time i won in p51 was from a BnZ style reversal snapshot after a low flat merge in the p51 vs high loop by G14.
The single time klauss beat me in a G14 vs G14 i put down to expert gunnery on his part coupled with decent piloting.

just goes to show how unlikely the p51 is to win vs a g14, i would say.

Thanks for the insight., especially the following comment :

The single time klauss beat me in a G14 vs G14 i put down to expert gunnery on his part coupled with decent piloting.

The above quote brings to mind a quote from Chuck Yeager, to wit: “I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world - British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese - and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.”

Sigh..time for more practice...hmmm, now where did I park my J-3.     (Piper Cub for all you Pilgrims)

[dtango]

OK let’s look at the 2nd merge.



Your second merge was much improved.  You were able to reverse back into the bandit and merge nearly at neutral angles.  Unfortunately you got smacked by a frontal snapshot.  So what was the difference between merge attempt one and merge attempt two?  Essentially the two same factors came into play: 1) initial separation, 2) turn performance.

In merge two you had more initial separation compared to the first merge at about D 1.5K yards in the 2nd merge.  This gave you room to maneuver and bring your nose around to the attacker before the attacker could get inside your turn circle

The other key in merge two was you maximized your turn performance.  Firstly you made the turn starting near corner velocity (Point 1) with full throttle all the way around the turn.  Having throttle wide open was key because you want to fight the energy bleed in the turn and keep your speed as close to corner as possible allowing you to maximize your turn performance through the turn.  This was far different than what you did on your first merge where you chopped throttle early in the turn.

Secondly you executed the turn with your lift vector pointed below the horizon.

 

Turning with your lift vector pointed below the horizon tightens your turn (increased rate, decreased radius) because gravity is working with and not against your lift.  In essence the amount radial G is increased with gravity in the direction of lift.  This is known as a gravity assist.

Consider the following diagram to demonstrate the effect of gravity on a vertical turn:

 

This diagram represents an aircraft making a vertical turn at a constant 4 g load turn.  At wings level with horizon (beginning and end points of the diagram) the lift vector is pointed directly opposite the direction of gravity.  Gravity works against the lift vector so that the resulting actual radial g-load is only 3 g’s instead of the 4.  With the lift vector at 90 degrees to that of gravity the airplane’s radial g-load is now 4 G’s because gravity no longer opposes lift.  As the lift vector points below the horizon notice that gravity begins to assists the turn represented by the 4.7 G and 5.0 G load.  As the aircraft makes its way around the loop and the lift vector starts to point above the horizon gravity again works against it.  So when your lift vector is pointed above the horizon gravity increases your turn radius and reduces your turn rate.  The opposite is true when the lift vector is pointed below the horizon: gravity decreases your turn radius and increases your turn rate.

So the combination of turning closer to corner with your lift vector pointed below the horizon helped you whip your nose around much quicker than the first merge.

Of course you got hit by a lucky snapshot at the merge.  Sometimes you take that risk.  There are obviously other things you could have done near the merge to make it even harder for the 109 to hit you like barrel rolling out of the 109’s plane, or slicing under his nose etc to make the angles that much harder.

Of course this is just breakdown of your two merge attempts.  There are many other things that could be up for discussion such as the plane to plane matchups, alternatives you had etc.  Other folks have touched on some of these already like the dentin and mechanic’s discussion about G-14 vs P-51D matchup.  The 109G-14 outclasses the P-51D in most aspects of raw airplane performance except for top level speed.  It doesn’t mean you can’t beat the Bf 109G-14 in a Mustang but it does mean you’ll have to outsmart the 109G-14 pilot if you’re relying on something else besides raw speed of the Mustang.  If I have time I’ll throw out a few more thoughts related.

Hope that provides some insight!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Kazaa]

Well, if you take out Energy advantages then i would say the only advantages the P51D has are effective-at-range firepower and great big old flaps. The best chance of beating a co-alt late model 109 would probably be using the barrel roll defence after forcing the 109 to chase you or dive and attack you.
 Co-alt and Co-E vs a G14 you are in big trouble unless the G-14 is very green, It's that simple. You can beat the pilot using tricks if you are lucky, but when you get low and slow on the deck the pony is toast.

just goes to show how unlikely the p51 is to win vs a g14, i would say.

/agree, the 109G14/K4 acceleration at low speeds will tear the P51 apart.

[bj229r]

Howdy Simaril:

I’m out of town for Thanksgiving and have some time to so I downloaded AH on my laptop and took a look at your film.  Here are my observations for what it’s worth.  We’ll focus on the two merges you attempted against the Bf 109G-14.


First Merge at 3:00

(Image removed from quote.)

At 3:00 you engage in your first merge.  The Bf 109 is on your six.  You have about a +30mph speed advantage and at a D 1.0k distance away.  You pull up into a vertical turn to reverse.  Your first merge attempt results in an angles disadvantage at the merge.  Let’s dissect why this happened.  There are two major factors.

1) You didn’t have enough initial separation for the turn you’re performing
Starting with a bogey at your six o’clock means you’re already at an angular and positional disadvantage unless you have enough maneuver room.  Of course you should try to not have the bogey there to begin with but you already know that.  Once there if you are going to try and maneuver then you need to have enough separation.

A cardinal rule of air to air maneuver is that the only way another aircraft can get shot down in a turn is if the attacker is able to turn inside the defender.

(Image removed from quote.)
 
Let’s look at a specific case of where we have two aircraft at same turn performance (radius and rate) but with the attacker behind the defender.

(Image removed from quote.)
 
If the attacker was right up on the exact same position as the defender, theoretically since the airplanes have the same turn performance there is no way the attacker could turn inside the defender and get lead for a shot.  However separate the two by a little distance and you can see in the diagram where the separation creates space and angles for the attacker to turn inside the defender now.  So separation distance is one of the factors that allow a trailing aircraft to turn inside a defender.

To negate this positional advantage, the defender in this situation must have enough separation from the attacker before initiating maneuver.  With enough separation the defender has enough room to maneuver to get around the circle before the attacker can get into a position to turn inside the defender. 

The question of course is how much separation is needed before you turn back into the attacker.  In short it needs to be enough turning room for you to make your way around the circle and face the attacker.  A rule of thumb is for the separation distance to be no less than one turn diameter.  For the turn you were executing which was about a rough average of 220 mph TAS at 2 G’s that equal’s a turn diameter of 3733 feet.  This would equate to at least a D 1.2K+ distance.  You started the reverse at 1.0K which was almost a thousand feet too short.

Don’t take this to mean that you never should reverse back when you’re less than one turn diameter separated from an enemy.  You can and sometimes you have no choice.  Just realize when you do that you’ll be at an angles disadvantage already at the merge so you’ll have to plan the follow-up maneuver sequences appropriately.

2) You didn’t maximize your turn performance
In your vertical reverse back into the 109 you entered your vertical turn at Point 1 at 255 mph IAS, 0-flaps, and MIL power.  This is actually an optimum condition which is about corner velocity for the P-51D at 50% fuel (your Mustang was about the same weight).  Here’s an old chart I did for the P-51D regarding corner speeds a long time ago (back in AH1).  Though outdated I assume that it still representative.

(Image removed from quote.)

Inexplicably as you enter into the turn you chop your throttle a few seconds later and your airspeed is down to 175 mph IAS at Point 2.  A fundamental concept to remember:  maximum turn performance occurs at corner velocity.  People often mistake that the slower you go the better your turn performance.  In actuality the slower you go below corner speed, the worse your turn radius and rate gets.  Here’s an EM chart posted by Badboy that illustrates the concept:

(Image removed from quote.)

As you can see turn rate and radius gets worst for the P-51 the slower below corner speed you turn.  Chopping throttle was the last thing to do in your case because you wanted to have as much thrust and speed through the vertical turn as possible because the speed you started the turn at was already at corner and you were going to bleed E as you continued through the turn.  Cutting throttle both slowed you down and also deprived you of countering the heavy energy bleed in the vertical turn.  In fact you left your throttle chopped until about Point 3.

2ndly instead of a turn in the oblique you executed it purely in a climbing vertical which means gravity is working against you for part of the turn.  We’ll visit this concept a bit more in the analysis of your second merge.

The end result in your first merge attempt is that the combination of turning without enough initial separation and turning at well below corner speed ensured that as you came around for the merge you were already at an angles disadvantage.

I’m out of time at the moment and will post analysis for the 2nd merge as well as some other general thoughts when I can.  In short you did much better with the 2nd merge but just got hit with a low probability frontal snapshot.

Hope this was worth a light bulb or two!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Geez no wonder I lose so many fights that start off like that one...need a frikkin Cray supercomputer to figure out moves during the course of the fight

[dtango]

Geez no wonder I lose so many fights that start off like that one...need a frikkin Cray supercomputer to figure out moves during the course of the fight

Hehe - well truth be known it's all about getting inside your opponents OODA loop.  What's that?  Observe, orient, decide, act.



It's Col John Boyd's essence of agility whether it be dogfighting or other activity.  The orientation component of the OODA loop is really important.  That's where all the processing occurs in developing a decision.  This is where speed counts the most, specifically re-orienting as new observations come in.

 

In essence your brain needs to be that Cray .

Instead of the long reply I could have just said "don't reverse until you have enough separation and when you do maximize your turn performance" but IMHO that's not enough information to help folks develop their "orientation" component of the OODA loop.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs