Russian SU-30 MK video

[morfiend]

UAV....


 I mean come on,right now the limiting factor in flight envelope is the pilot!
 With an armed UAV the "G" limit no longer exists, sustanded 12 to 20 g turns would be possible even higher.

 Hmmm arent they training for this type of combat now..... AHII ...

[Dream Child]

Dogfighting went obsolete with the medium range A2A missile... well the missile in general.

Yea, and that's what they though in Viet Nam. The first F4's didn't even have a gun on them. Our pilots weren't trained in ACM. They had a poor kill to death ratio at the start of the war, because dogfighting was "obsolete". You might notice that all of our modern fighter aircraft are cannon equipped, and our pilots are again trained in ACM. If the radar can't see the enemy due to it being a stealth, it will be like fighting in WWII all over again, but with faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Air to air missiles will likely be worthless, and you better understand ACM. It will still likely come down to who is the better pilot under such a scenario.

[macerxgp]

and when your out of missiles and you dont have a gun your done.

You forgot again......

Even after firing all it's onboard missiles, and F-22 will never be completely out of them. Remember, the F-22 can lock up a bandit with somebody else's radar, and the F-22 can lock up something on radar and fire somebody else's missiles. Like missiles on the upcoming B1R. Which there will be 30 of on any one of them.

[abc123]

Yea, and that's what they though in Viet Nam. The first F4's didn't even have a gun on them. Our pilots weren't trained in ACM. They had a poor kill to death ratio at the start of the war, because dogfighting was "obsolete". You might notice that all of our modern fighter aircraft are cannon equipped, and our pilots are again trained in ACM. If the radar can't see the enemy due to it being a stealth, it will be like fighting in WWII all over again, but with faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Air to air missiles will likely be worthless, and you better understand ACM. It will still likely come down to who is the better pilot under such a scenario.

Not to downplay the importance of having a gun 'just in case,' but you do realize that the missiles used in the Vietnam era were wildly inaccurate and unreliable?  Add to that our inability to ID a Mig (before the advent of TISEO) before it flew out of our Sparrow's effective performance envelope, which normally was a head-on/ nose to nose aspect.  If missiles had been effective back then as they are now, there wouldn't have been such a hurt for an on board gun (if any at all). 

Our current technology far surpasses what we had available during the Vietnam Conflict.  An on board gun isn't as important now-a-days as it was back then.

[Race]

You forgot again......

Even after firing all it's onboard missiles, and F-22 will never be completely out of them. Remember, the F-22 can lock up a bandit with somebody else's radar, and the F-22 can lock up something on radar and fire somebody else's missiles. Like missiles on the upcoming B1R. Which there will be 30 of on any one of them.

    I disagree with that for a few reasons, mainly your assuming the enemy fighter doesnt get inside visual range. Also you cant lockup a friendlies infared missiles over a data link like radar missiles. The prospect of locking up a manuevering enemy while dodging his threats is slim. What happens when the missile you fired loses track on the enemy and finds you? Another scenario would be lose of AWAC's coverage. If your F-22 is not beaming radar the enemy is effectively invisible if they power down thier radars. Your not always going to have extra friends with missiles or a back marker beaming radar signals to you. All the comments about ACM came after missiles went into service. They fixed that real fast....

Race

[Chalenge]

You forgot again......

Even after firing all it's onboard missiles, and F-22 will never be completely out of them. Remember, the F-22 can lock up a bandit with somebody else's radar, and the F-22 can lock up something on radar and fire somebody else's missiles. Like missiles on the upcoming B1R. Which there will be 30 of on any one of them.

I didnt forget. Go beyond that and consider overwhelming numbers and you will see where I was going or consider the B1Rs get taken out... Always carry a gun or repeat the history of Vietnam era aircraft.

[Dream Child]

Not to downplay the importance of having a gun 'just in case,' but you do realize that the missiles used in the Vietnam era were wildly inaccurate and unreliable?  Add to that our inability to ID a Mig (before the advent of TISEO) before it flew out of our Sparrow's effective performance envelope, which normally was a head-on/ nose to nose aspect.  If missiles had been effective back then as they are now, there wouldn't have been such a hurt for an on board gun (if any at all). 

Our current technology far surpasses what we had available during the Vietnam Conflict.  An on board gun isn't as important now-a-days as it was back then.

Yes, our technology surpasses what we had in Vietnam. It surpasses it so much that a modern missile can't lock on to a F-22. This leaves the gun option and ACM, nothing more.

[macerxgp]

Yes, our technology surpasses what we had in Vietnam. It surpasses it so much that a modern missile can't lock on to a F-22. This leaves the gun option and ACM, nothing more.

For them, at least. We don't have to worry about it, because they don't have F-22's!

Now, to solve most of the questions that have been posed....

BVR Target entering VR:     How the hell'd he make it into VR in the first place!? Assuming he simply hugged the deck to avoid radar (desperately hard vs an F-22, seeing as with the F-22's radar resolution you'd be dodging some MAJOR tree-ack), he'd be picked up in an instant. The F-22 has all-aspect radar, and can detect targets all around it. And forget missing one, nobody else had stealth aircraft. And locking up a target in a dogfight hard?! Hardly. Don't forget, most modern U.S. fighters can lock up and launch a missile at a target up to 45 degrees off boresight, using the helmet-tracking weapons control system (name escapes me) first used in the Su-27, F-16 and F/A-18 IIRC. Modern U.S. heatseeking missiles are fairly simple to lock onto a bandit in a dogfight, especially the new AIM-9X sidewinder missile. With improved all-aspect capabilities, coupled with a vectored thrust nozzle, it's almost impossible to out-maneuver. 'Almost', meaning there is still room for a MiG to make a lucky move and confuse the missile. And we still have a 20mm gatling just in case.

That still leaves the question of how that damn fighter got passed the F-22's (and AWACS, no less!) radar in the first place. It seems that all the responses championing VR combat and guns-hot dogfighting are based on an assumption that, somehow, all of the BVR sensors on every single F-22 in the combat group have failed simultaneously, leaving none of the BVR weapons on the F-22's as viable weapons. Seeing as with how advanced the systems on the F-22 actually are (declassified and implied statistics don't even hint at what this bird is actually capable of), it's hard to believe that any adversary will survive an engagement past 30 seconds after radar acquisition on the F-22's due to their compliment of AMRAAMS plus their unbelievable radars. And even if you base your statements off of experiences in the Gulf War, keep in mind that we have gone through dozens of electronics upgrades since then, almost eliminating the malfunctions we saw there.

Until Sukhoi or Mikoyan come up with a stealth fighter of their own, we won't have any issues with hitting planes at BVR anymore.

[olskool2]

It's impossible to speculate what's going to happen in the next large air war, simply because we haven't seen one since Vietnam, and 30+ years of technological improvements coupled with the fact that it has not been tested versus capable opponents in actual combat situations. Iraq hosted Mig 29s, old school AA guns and first-generation garage-sale SAMs and still managed a few kills.

[macerxgp]

Iraq hosted Mig 29s, old school AA guns and first-generation garage-sale SAMs and still managed a few kills.

Against un-stealthy, low flying aircraft. (IIRC, an Iraqi S75's shot down only a single F-14.) Which we no-longer use before air defenses are suppressed entirely in that area. Until then, we only operate stealthy and semi-stealthy aircraft in hot combat zones, which are virtually impervious (no effective counters to stealth have been made yet) to air defenses.

Remember, nothing the ruskies have can even tell that F-22's exist, as far as their guns know.

[Race]

For them, at least. We don't have to worry about it, because they don't have F-22's!

Now, to solve most of the questions that have been posed....

BVR Target entering VR:     How the hell'd he make it into VR in the first place!? Assuming he simply hugged the deck to avoid radar (desperately hard vs an F-22, seeing as with the F-22's radar resolution you'd be dodging some MAJOR tree-ack), he'd be picked up in an instant. The F-22 has all-aspect radar, and can detect targets all around it. And forget missing one, nobody else had stealth aircraft. And locking up a target in a dogfight hard?! Hardly. Don't forget, most modern U.S. fighters can lock up and launch a missile at a target up to 45 degrees off boresight, using the helmet-tracking weapons control system (name escapes me) first used in the Su-27, F-16 and F/A-18 IIRC. Modern U.S. heatseeking missiles are fairly simple to lock onto a bandit in a dogfight, especially the new AIM-9X sidewinder missile. With improved all-aspect capabilities, coupled with a vectored thrust nozzle, it's almost impossible to out-maneuver. 'Almost', meaning there is still room for a MiG to make a lucky move and confuse the missile. And we still have a 20mm gatling just in case.

That still leaves the question of how that damn fighter got passed the F-22's (and AWACS, no less!) radar in the first place. It seems that all the responses championing VR combat and guns-hot dogfighting are based on an assumption that, somehow, all of the BVR sensors on every single F-22 in the combat group have failed simultaneously, leaving none of the BVR weapons on the F-22's as viable weapons. Seeing as with how advanced the systems on the F-22 actually are (declassified and implied statistics don't even hint at what this bird is actually capable of), it's hard to believe that any adversary will survive an engagement past 30 seconds after radar acquisition on the F-22's due to their compliment of AMRAAMS plus their unbelievable radars. And even if you base your statements off of experiences in the Gulf War, keep in mind that we have gone through dozens of electronics upgrades since then, almost eliminating the malfunctions we saw there.

Until Sukhoi or Mikoyan come up with a stealth fighter of their own, we won't have any issues with hitting planes at BVR anymore.

    You cant just beam radar out like its oldies on the radio and you think AWACs wont be some of the first targets? A radar not used wisely is like mounting a GPS tracking beacon on your back. While infared missiles are easy to lock up in a dogfight doesnt mean you can use your buddies missiles. Assuming you even have a buddy (damage, fuel issues, or worse....) launching an infared missile towards a friendlies area is fool hardy at best. If it loses track the next track might right up your tail pipe. So say you lose your AWAC's (not unrealistic against a formidable opponent) what happens next? You fire that radar up and show the world where you are? They dont even need to have there radar on to see you...threat warning? Even the B-2 can be seen on radar if it gets close enough to a radar site with out emiting a darn electron. Enemy fighters have a lot more than guns to work with against the F-22. Infared will easily lock them up....you cant hide all that heat. Get one in a rear aspect shot and Id bet your fancy stealth goes to heck too. Nothing stopping the radar from bouncing off those shiny radar reflectors called turbine blades. Stealth doesnt mean invisible, it means you have a low radar return for a given aspect. Turn your belly to a radar and you will be seen if you are inside the effective range of the emiter.

Race

[macerxgp]

    You cant just beam radar out like its oldies on the radio and you think AWACs wont be some of the first targets? A radar not used wisely is like mounting a GPS tracking beacon on your back. While infared missiles are easy to lock up in a dogfight doesnt mean you can use your buddies missiles. Assuming you even have a buddy (damage, fuel issues, or worse....) launching an infared missile towards a friendlies area is fool hardy at best. If it loses track the next track might right up your tail pipe. So say you lose your AWAC's (not unrealistic against a formidable opponent) what happens next? You fire that radar up and show the world where you are? They dont even need to have there radar on to see you...threat warning? Even the B-2 can be seen on radar if it gets close enough to a radar site with out emiting a darn electron. Enemy fighters have a lot more than guns to work with against the F-22. Infared will easily lock them up....you cant hide all that heat. Get one in a rear aspect shot and Id bet your fancy stealth goes to heck too. Nothing stopping the radar from bouncing off those shiny radar reflectors called turbine blades. Stealth doesnt mean invisible, it means you have a low radar return for a given aspect. Turn your belly to a radar and you will be seen if you are inside the effective range of the emiter.

Race

And I'm quite sure training makes sure that a Raptor pilot never goes belly-up at a hostile plane.

Also, AWACS operates (If I can recall) at ranges outside normal engagement ranges, and if I remember, the US could cover most of Iraq with a single AWACS. Also, the F-22's radar is DESIGNED IN A WAY TO MAKE IT SO THAT EVEN IF YOU LOCK THEM UP AND SHOOT AN AMRAAM AT THEM THEY WON'T BE ANY THE WISER. (It was already said earlier in the thread, man.) The F-22 is meant as a ho machine, meaning point it in the general direction of enemy, aircraft lock 'em up on radar, fire missiles, and get out.

I'm tired of debating the effectiveness of the F-22 in ways it is not designed to engage enemy fighters, and situations which are impossible under it's electronics package. (I.E., use of the radar betraying it's position. The F-22's radar simply won't do it. It's designed specifically NOT TO.)

[mechanic]

The raptor cant do the bkacflip that the Su does aoround the middle of the display. If it can no one showed it.

[macerxgp]

The raptor cant do the bkacflip that the Su does aoround the middle of the display. If it can no one showed it.

Yes it can. And it has been shown.

[mechanic]

i watched the videos provided on page 1. the SU was many times more impressive. maybe i missed something