Author Topic: PANTHER--> please  (Read 2807 times)

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2009, 11:40:07 AM »
I like how you included don't bother responding...why because you're wrong and don't want to get shown up anymore? The tiger kwk 36 beat the 75m kwk42 at ranges exceeding 1500m end of. I mixed up no info in my prior thread, read the sentence again or how many times it takes....where does it say i said the panther had a 88m gun? If english isnt your first language your excused if it is then that was a pretty bad attempt at an attack, typos or spelling attacks died out as an art form in the 20th century.
I'm not hell bent on anger either I'm hell bent on putting facts in peoples faces attacking posts and using ridiculous information glazed from discovery or the history channels or from books that raped another books dodgy facts. But you can be my friend for realising the panther was the best tank of the war :).

I'm not wrong.   You made comparisons that I never did.   I NEVER MENTIONED THE TIGER I's GUN!   I see your reading comprehension is still failing, as I pointed it out in my first reply.   You're the only one who is again stating the obvious that a larger caliber gun, is more effective.

-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline rapp25

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2009, 02:58:39 PM »
My reading failed? I never said the panther had a 88mm gun......which you tried to highlight incorrectly in bold. Re-read the sentence like I said before.
"An 88 hitting a t34/85 at 96000000 degree angle would rip it apart - a panthers shell would slide nicely in between the metal molecules." Now where does that say the panther had 88mm gun??? Your wrong, your reading comprehension failed.

The larger calibre gun (88mm) was only more effective beyond 1500 metres too by the way, the 75mm kwk 42 penetrated more armour all the way out to that distance until it lost its velocity whereby the 88mm became superior at amour penetration. I don't care if you didnt mention the tigers gun but since you made A.D.D comments like the tiger was a heavy tank and panther medium I decided to add in a bit of info. The general direction of the thread had people thinking that the panthers kwk 42 was god almighty 3000m kill gun so i'm not directly aiming things your way with each sentence.

I could also nit pick and make bold highlights to your crazy incomprehensible sentence "The Panther is superior to the T34/85 in frontal fire."  NO ONE MENTIONED THE T34/85 FRONTAL FIRE!!!! what is frontal fire? shooting when the turret is 100% aligned with the hull correctly by factory default or taking hits to the front glacis/hull/mantel?

I'm not stating the obvious in saying a larger calibre gun is more effective, you sure don't have much information on these topics if you believe the 88 was totally more effective. The 75mm was better at AP within likely combat ranges 800-1200m, the 88mm was better in a more all round manner (soft targets, bunkers, longe range shelling) and had a longer AP range. 

« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 03:24:17 PM by rapp25 »

Offline GREric

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 215
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2009, 08:18:05 PM »
Wasnt it called "Germany's Problem Child"? But I would love to have it! I would own everyone in it.
Bishop MoM Coordinator, GrEric.

Offline rapp25

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2009, 08:37:58 PM »
Wasnt it called "Germany's Problem Child"? But I would love to have it! I would own everyone in it.

Guderian referred to the initial panthers as that as over half had to be recalled for refitting of the intial 500 or so produced but it wasn't a common or lasting nickname afaik.

Offline BigPlay

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2009, 10:53:16 AM »
Exactly my point, but we cannot model that in AHII or anyother game, unless we make some kind of Bomberesk formations for t-34's where you launch 5 tanks to 1 Tiger (hardly possible IMHO)


This isn't WW2 it's a game where everyone can use the plane and gv set so sheer numbers that the Russian and the Americans isn't applicable here .

Offline BigPlay

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2009, 11:13:33 AM »


 The lower front gun mantel plate often deflected shots downwards into the driver/radio operators 16mm thick compartments and also the firefly was capable of defeating the mantle and gun armour but not the hull using APCBC. I dont think the panther would be more perked than the tiger at all. Its only faster and sexier looking.
[/quote]





This mantle problem was corrected in the G model and might have been in the A as well, I'll have to check on that. People are missing the point here . The Panther was designed to defeat the T-34 and it did that job well. When the Panther and Tigers were designed the American and British tanks were being  handled by Mk IV's in the desert. These tanks were designed for the open grass lands of Russia not the hedge rows of Normandy. Side armor wasn't a concern for the type of warfare that was being conducted in Russia. Most tank battles in Russia were done at distance and in open terrain where frontal armor was the only concern. The side armor was adequate for standoff tank battles. If the Germans fought the Firefly at standoff ranges then goodbye Firefly. The German gun and armor set up would have rendered the Firefly at a huge disadvantage from the simple fact is that the Sherman tank could be knocked out at over 3000 yards head on by the Tiger and Panthers. I don't think the Firefly's gun was capable of taking out a Tiger or even a Panther's frontal armor at those ranges. Also you have to remember that German infantry and armor operated in harmony with one another. It was the Panzer Grenader's job to protect the flanks of the Panzer's and from infantry placed magnetic mines. No other army in WW2 had the type of tactics the Germans did in relation to armor and infantry unison


Offline rapp25

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2009, 12:23:42 PM »

 The lower front gun mantel plate often deflected shots downwards into the driver/radio operators 16mm thick compartments and also the firefly was capable of defeating the mantle and gun armour but not the hull using APCBC. I dont think the panther would be more perked than the tiger at all. Its only faster and sexier looking.






This mantle problem was corrected in the G model and might have been in the A as well, I'll have to check on that. People are missing the point here . The Panther was designed to defeat the T-34 and it did that job well. When the Panther and Tigers were designed the American and British tanks were being  handled by Mk IV's in the desert. These tanks were designed for the open grass lands of Russia not the hedge rows of Normandy. Side armor wasn't a concern for the type of warfare that was being conducted in Russia. Most tank battles in Russia were done at distance and in open terrain where frontal armor was the only concern. The side armor was adequate for standoff tank battles. If the Germans fought the Firefly at standoff ranges then goodbye Firefly. The German gun and armor set up would have rendered the Firefly at a huge disadvantage from the simple fact is that the Sherman tank could be knocked out at over 3000 yards head on by the Tiger and Panthers. I don't think the Firefly's gun was capable of taking out a Tiger or even a Panther's frontal armor at those ranges. Also you have to remember that German infantry and armor operated in harmony with one another. It was the Panzer Grenader's job to protect the flanks of the Panzer's and from infantry placed magnetic mines. No other army in WW2 had the type of tactics the Germans did in relation to armor and infantry unison



The shot trap wasn't corrected until late september 1944 on the Aus G. The panther was a germanized version of the T34 to an extent and was intended to stop it yes...but I doubt the germans thought they'd only be using the panther in the east after '43 as optimistic as some of their high command were...

The side armour was a concern because the frontal armour had already been given a no no by hitler upon initial development and ordered to be upgraded a further 20mm or so. The sides were kept low on armour to save weight as with most german tanks the planned weight was always exceeded by late prototype phase. I don't think any tank was designed for hedge row fighting - some were just more suitable to it by chance.

The Germans doctrine or having troops protect tanks only came into effect when they started producing big heavy hitting tanks (tiger I & II, panther) instead of their nimble concentrated blitzkrieg tactics with the earlier panzers. 

Offline BigPlay

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2009, 01:34:14 PM »
I am referring to the use of troops with the heaver tanks and yes during the early stages of Blitzkrieg it wasn't implamented to the extent that it was later in the war. Hedgerow fighting for the late war German tanks were successful primarily because of the consealed defensive positions it took up for fighting , hence the story of Barkmann's corner. But surprise on the flanks was always a threat because of the lack of panzer grenadiers in most cases and the close in fighting that was present with that type of fighting where in Russia it really wasn't as much a factor. I don't think the Germans even gave  American or the British armor a second thought. Having fought against the Sherman and almost all the British tank set in Africa so having tanks like the Tiger and the Panther was all icing on the cake. By the time the Germans fought the American and British in Normandy even better tanks and tank destroyers were in place. Many Tigers and Panthers lost during the Normandy battles were mechanical related and the others were destroyed by air. From what I have read not many Tigers were once and for all knocked out due to damage done by another tank. Many were retrieved from the field and repaired. Ernst Barkmann speaks of how he was assigned another Panther while his was being repaired and upon climbing into the tank noticed brain matter that was still splattered on the interior of the tank. His tank was repaired and damaged again and repaired again until it was finally lost due to falling into a bomb crater and destroyed by the crew. Most if not all WW2 tanks were prone with thin side armor even todays tanks have thinner side armor in comparsion to their frontal armor.

Offline rapp25

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2009, 02:06:22 PM »
I am referring to the use of troops with the heaver tanks and yes during the early stages of Blitzkrieg it wasn't implamented to the extent that it was later in the war. Hedgerow fighting for the late war German tanks were successful primarily because of the consealed defensive positions it took up for fighting , hence the story of Barkmann's corner. But surprise on the flanks was always a threat because of the lack of panzer grenadiers in most cases and the close in fighting that was present with that type of fighting where in Russia it really wasn't as much a factor. I don't think the Germans even gave  American or the British armor a second thought. Having fought against the Sherman and almost all the British tank set in Africa so having tanks like the Tiger and the Panther was all icing on the cake. By the time the Germans fought the American and British in Normandy even better tanks and tank destroyers were in place. Many Tigers and Panthers lost during the Normandy battles were mechanical related and the others were destroyed by air. From what I have read not many Tigers were once and for all knocked out due to damage done by another tank. Many were retrieved from the field and repaired. Ernst Barkmann speaks of how he was assigned another Panther while his was being repaired and upon climbing into the tank noticed brain matter that was still splattered on the interior of the tank. His tank was repaired and damaged again and repaired again until it was finally lost due to falling into a bomb crater and destroyed by the crew. Most if not all WW2 tanks were prone with thin side armor even todays tanks have thinner side armor in comparsion to their frontal armor.

I think up to 43% of all german tanks in Normandy and resulting battles afterards in France were abandoned or destroyed by their own crews, the amount of tanks knocked out by air power was massively exaggerated but they certainly made bits of other softer AFVs, I cant seem to find the figures now but I think only about 20% of german tanks were knocked out by enemy tanks of course usually by flanking with 4-5 shermans and the many hidden AT guns which claimed more than allied tanks themselves.

After reading Tigers in the Mud by Otto Carius its just phenomenal how those tigers stood up to shots from all angles and all calibres and your very correct on most of them being knocked out with non fatal hits, they often counted 60+ hits from 76m AT guns tank shells and loads of AT rifle hits near the vision slots.
They towed them back at night usually or sometimes by another tiger during battle  (which was also a major cause of breakdowns due to the stress placed on the towing tank) to be repaired/welded/refitted and back in action sometimes the next day, brain matter and blood were a common occurrence in the very later days of the war when there was no time to do anything from many eye witness tankers accounts I've read. Panthers were more prone to fires and ammo blowing up so there wasnt as many of those "recycled" - I think its also related to lower quality armour due to lack of mangenese - not even its more vulnerable sides and rear.

The british conducted tests and found german armour of 80mm in'43 approximate to 92 of theirs whilst seeing what range they could penetrate a tiger with a firefly (they incorrectly thought 1800m for a long time). 
Bottom line I'd love to see the panther make its entry into this game.

Offline shreck

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2009, 02:36:29 PM »
  P A N T H E R ,  will do nicely!     TY :aok

Offline BigPlay

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2009, 02:38:49 PM »
Tigers in the Mud is a good book. The best reading I have come across about panzer battles is "1st SS Pzr. and 12th SS Pnzr div Panzer Battles in Normandy" also Amazon sells these soft bound books one called "Panzer Aces" and the other escape me but. Panzer Aces is a number of different stories form various famous tank commanders from Russia to the battles in France. Some of these stories are amazing. How they did it day in and day out still amazes me.

Offline BigKev03

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 256
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2009, 06:43:27 PM »
If we got the panther in this game it would have to have a high perk on it.  Even though its armor was not as thick as the tiger's its gun had more penetration due to the higher muzzle velocity.  In this game we tend to see GV battles at ranges less than 2000m.  Very few times do I see someone engaging from extreme range and I blame this on the terrain in this game.  If we had the desert map terrain or a steppe type map then you would see more extended GV battles.  But with our style of spawn camping, short drives to bases, and base defense we won't see the actual lethality of the Panther as it was in WWII.  The Panther hands down would defeat any armor of any vehicle in this game at range (even the tiger).  In this game I have given up on expecting realism in vehicle damage.  Example:  I am in a tiger and I hit a panzer or a sherman at 1000m or less from the broadshide below the turret.  This round in real life would have destroyed or disabled the vehicle.  In this game the vehicle does not blow but contiues to operate as if nothing has happened.  How many times have you hit a vehicle more than once and it contiue to fire at you an kill you in one shot.  I dont like this but what can you do?  What Ihave done is begin to fight at range when I am in the main battle tanks.  True the panther had thinner armor than the tiger but due to its slope of 55 degrees it was harder to penetrate as compared to the tigers vertical armor.  3" of sloped armor could be compared to 4" or 5" inches of vertical armor.  Only weakness to the Panther was side armor but so was the tiger when it came to side armor.  In addition, the Panther had a value in real life that I dont think this game can replicate.  The Panther was stabilized by suspension that consisted of front drive sprockets, rear idlers and eight double-interleaved rubber-rimmed steel bogie wheels on each side, suspended on a dual torsion bar suspension which provided a very stable firing platform even while on the move.  The panther could shoot and move and hit all at the same time.  Anyway I would liketo see the Panther as well as other vehicles but I dont think we will see it anytime soon.

Out,
BigKev


Offline Cajunn

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 723
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2009, 06:53:54 PM »
If we got the panther in this game it would have to have a high perk on it.  Even though its armor was not as thick as the tiger's its gun had more penetration due to the higher muzzle velocity.  In this game we tend to see GV battles at ranges less than 2000m.  Very few times do I see someone engaging from extreme range and I blame this on the terrain in this game.  I

Out,
BigKev





Hummmmmm, I have been in some really long range engagements in the past so I don't know if I can support this statement.
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.”

Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
Japanese Samurai & Philosopher

Offline rapp25

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2009, 07:00:55 PM »
I've hit a t34 at 7-8k with a panzer IV (I could judge from planes flying overhead) and I also regularly see some of the GV lovers in my squad on top of hills firing at distances whereupon they probably have exceeded that. I distinctly remember running around as a pilot in the middle of an enemy GV spawn directing fire from a guy firing from the top of a hill, a rather humerous waste of my time but was sure funny seeing those super long range kills that wouldnt even exist in modern day tanking.

I don't think the panther should be heavily perked at all as the GVing lacks depth. The only real advantage might be the high velocity gun making it easier to range real quick compared to other tanks but it would be minimal with the current modelling imo.

Offline Tr1gg22

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 871
Re: PANTHER--> please
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2009, 03:15:58 PM »
show me the panther! ;)
"CO" of the Wobblin Gobblins...