Learning the 109 Series, have questions

[PFactorDave]

Have taken it upon myself to learn the 109 series as much as possible this tour.

After a few days of flying the 109s almost exclusively, I think I am starting to get a feel for the handling characteristics of the various models.  So far, I am gravitating most toward the F model and the G14 model.  The F because it has the closest "feel" to the nimble Japanese planes that I have been flying (KI84 and A6Ms).  I find I like the G14 for its powerful engine.

I've tried the K4, but I'm having a really hard time getting used to the "tater". 

So, today I flew mostly the G14 with the 20mm hub cannon rather then the 30mm and seemed to have some measure of success.

So, down to the questions...  Had a short PM conversation with Gavagai (many thanks for taking the time  ) about "tater" convergence and fully understand that setting the 30mm to a fairly short range can aid in over all aiming...  But I find myself more interested in mastering the 20mm gun packages, for a couple of reasons.  Number one, because they seem to be less "different" then the Japanese gun packages that I am used to (not to say that they are the same, just that overall the tater is radically different), in hopes that switching between the Jap/German lines won't completely screw my gunnery up.  And number two, the 20mm hub+nose MGs is fairly consistant throughout the 109 series (yes the F has the smaller MGs then the others, but the hub cannon is the primary killer anyway and it is pretty much universal).

So, I'm curious if other 109 drivers prefer the 20mm cannon and if so, what convergence settings seem to work best.  So far, I have my 20mm set out to about 350 and my MGs at 650...

Also, I'm wondering what (if any) advantages the 109K has over the G14...  Assume they both have the 30mm hub cannon, no gondolas etc...  I'm inclined to learn mostly in the G14 simply because I can choose a 20mm cannon (for ballistics reasons), but wonder if I am hamstringing myself and if perhaps I should bite the bullet and try to learn the "tater"...  Or maybe learn the series with the 20mm, then once mastered try "tatering"...

Thoughts?

[Anaxogoras]

I prefer the 20mm gun package simply because I can kill from 600 yards out with it when the target is lined up well, but with the 30mm I cannot.  The ammo lasts longer, it's easier to hit a squirming target and a miss with a burst of 20mm is not a disaster like it is with the 30mm. The MK 108 is for buff killing.  Like soda says in his evaluation of the 109K-4, taterizing a fighter is overkill.  The only advantage the 30mm cannon gives you in fighter-vs-fighter combat is the one hit kill during a very quick snap shot.

That said, the reason for learning it is to fly the 109K-4 instead of the G-14.  It's 20mph faster on the deck, and that gap only increases with altitude.  It accelerates better, too, and outclimbs the G-14 at most altitudes (except for a narrow range of 5-7k ft).  If you don't have a drop tank rack, you can run down P-51s at all altitudes, which is fun.   Be careful not to engage in tight combat with 100% fuel in the K-4 because it's a real brick at that weight (re-learned that lesson yesterday).  Get it down to at least 75-65% gas before you attempt anything fancy.

In the G-14 you should have your mg's and cannon converge at the same range.  Why would you do otherwise?  I set them both out to 400 yards because that's the range at which I'm usually shooting to kill.

[trotter]

Also, I'm wondering what (if any) advantages the 109K has over the G14...  Assume they both have the 30mm hub cannon, no gondolas etc...  I'm inclined to learn mostly in the G14 simply because I can choose a 20mm cannon (for ballistics reasons), but wonder if I am hamstringing myself and if perhaps I should bite the bullet and try to learn the "tater"...  Or maybe learn the series with the 20mm, then once mastered try "tatering"...

Put simply...you are "hamstringing" yourself. The G14 is a powerful plane, but it is fiddlesticks in power compared to the K4. The K4 has better speed at both wep and non-wep, slightly better climb, and better performance at altitude. One interesting thing about the G14 is that performance drops considerably without wep. Far more than non-wep performance drop in other planes, even other 109's. On the deck I believe G14 top speed without wep is actually slower than a G2. This is limited in importance by the 9 minutes of wep standard on all 109's, but it bears consideration...once your wep runs out, so does pretty much the only reason you chose the G14 to begin with.

I'm not saying you shouldn't fly the G14, I believe it has great style points and is a great option if you're looking for a powerful 109 without the tater. The view over the cowling in the G14 is my favorite. I just believe that there is no reason other than personal preference to fly the G14 over the K4 if you are using the tater on both.

To get to some of your other points, I'm sure gavagai told you the importance of taking a different type of shot with the 30mm. You should be frequently looking for full profile shots, preferably while the bandit is in a break turn, while you have enough speed (you don't need a ton, in the K4) to go vert if you miss your shot, ready to come down again. You will have almost no success in the traditional "bank with bandit, pull nose and lead" shot. A good thing to remember while shooting the tater is to keep your wings level as much as possible when looking for firing solutions. You want the bandit to cross your gunsights, not fancy your lead to the unforgiving whims of the tater.

You are correct about the mg+cannon combo in the 109's being somewhat similiar to the Ki-84's configuration. Back when I would cycle between aircraft frequently, I would never have much difficulty switching from Ki-84/Ki-61 shots to 109 shots.

But getting back to the 109's, don't feel compelled to be either a tater guy or a 20mm guy. You can switch between both fairly easily, as long as you remember to look for a different "type" of shot with the tater, you will find that your gunnery won't get confused between 20mm and 30mm.

[Anaxogoras]

To get to some of your other points, I'm sure gavagai told you the importance of taking a different type of shot with the 30mm. You should be frequently looking for full profile shots, preferably while the bandit is in a break turn, while you have enough speed (you don't need a ton, in the K4) to go vert if you miss your shot, ready to come down again. You will have almost no success in the traditional "bank with bandit, pull nose and lead" shot. A good thing to remember while shooting the tater is to keep your wings level as much as possible when looking for firing solutions. You want the bandit to cross your gunsights, not fancy your lead to the unforgiving whims of the tater.

Actually, we didn't go into that much detail, but this advice is 100% correct.  All of what trotter describes here is intended to get a tiny snap shot with the bandit filling your gunsight at very close range.  The duration of the firing solution is irrelevant.

Mostly, you're trying to induce someone into a break turn to avoid your attack.  Normally you would go for a lag pursuit to set up a tracking shot, but instead you execute a fairly extreme lead pursuit, roll your wings level and use the elevator to line up a shot as they cross your view.

[trotter]

If you don't have a drop tank rack, you can run down P-51s at all altitudes, which is fun.

I think I can say with some certainty that chasing down 51's in a K4 is one of my favorite things in this game. You can tell when it's a newer 51 pilot, lured into thinking the mustang "PwNZ" all other planes, and that he will simply run with ease. It's the kind of slow overtake where you can tell at first the pony pilot thinks he's getting away...

Then the realization that the 109 is not fading, but actually gaining. Slowly...just barely perceptible...

The mustang pilot keeps hitting WEP but it's already on! "WTF???", he thinks.

Once he starts to break, it's over. The K4 can saddle up and wait for the tater shot of his choice. You can make the pony pilot sweat it out as long as you want, maybe let him try to learn some ACM for once.

Not to say ponies are always an easy kill in a K4, against a good pilot a pony is actually a huge threat, especially for the first few turns. But the ponies that run...there are few things better than catching them when they think they can't be caught.

[BaldEagl]

I set 30mm convergence at 650.  I landed a 3 kill sorite in a 190A-8 and a 5 kill sortie in a 109K-4 tonight.  One of the K-4 kills was a Pony D from 800 yards.

Set a convergence you are familiar with and learn the ballistics.

[PFactorDave]

I set 30mm convergence at 650.  I landed a 3 kill sorite in a 190A-8 and a 5 kill sortie in a 109K-4 tonight.  One of the K-4 kills was a Pony D from 800 yards.

Set a convergence you are familiar with and learn the ballistics.

But the issue is that the "tater" ballistics are sooo absolutely foreign when compared to the other weapons.  Do we learn to lob the tater?  Or are we better off learning the 20mm Hub guns, knowing that they aren't enormously different then the big guns on other fighters we fly? (ie the KI84/N1k/A6M)

[abc123]

In the G2 I have cannon set to 275 and mg's to 250.  I do this because when I'm pulling a little bit of lead in a turn, I want the heavier cannon arcing infront of the mg's more so that it G forces don't pull back and away from my mg convergence.  I also don't set them to far apart because I want them converging in the same general area on a 1G shot.

If I had the option for a 30mm hub cannon on the G2 (to bad that never occurred in real life) I would greatly consider taking that over the 20mm cannon.  The ability to kill in one quick shot is wonderful, and in the G2, a lot of my shots come after reversing on an opponent in the vertical, and when rolling over and down into them, a brief snap shot with the 20/mg most of the times isn't enough to get an immediate kill.  Once I get on their six (supposing I do) if really makes no difference to me what gun package I have then, as I could most likely finish the job.

[BaldEagl]

But the issue is that the "tater" ballistics are sooo absolutely foreign when compared to the other weapons.  Do we learn to lob the tater?  Or are we better off learning the 20mm Hub guns, knowing that they aren't enormously different then the big guns on other fighters we fly? (ie the KI84/N1k/A6M)

Learn the tater.  You'll be glad you did.

I've been able to get soo many fraction of a second fatal snapshot kills in the A8 and K4 that wouldn't be possible with the 20mm that it's well worth learning.  One hit, one kill.

[PFactorDave]

Learn the tater.  You'll be glad you did.

Really?  I'm not so sure.  Most of the time I expect to find myself flying a KI84.  Something tells me that the "tater" will only be a benefit if I NEVER fly anything else...  I really don't want to fly the 109 series as a primary platform, only as a high ENY platform, when the KI84 is locked out...

[Scotch]

For what it's worth...

I flew the k4 a lot harder and more aggressive than a lot of people are recommending in these 09 threads. Being able to end the fight quickly with a snapshot definitely helps when you're choosing to get in against something like a Japanese bird, spit 9, or multi con engagement. If you're really interested in the 09, then try the k4. Don't let the cannon intimidate you, just get closer. It's hands down the best of the series and can beat any other plane in the set. You just want to kill some planes quicker than others...   You're not going to lose your ability to hit with the 20mm, in fact it will improve too as you will recognize better shots and work for the right angles. The tater is also on other birds, so learning it allows you access to those planes too

[mondego]

I find the K4 has superior stall characteristics to the G14. When very slow, the G14 can slip into an abrupt stall to the left, more so than the K4. The previous posters have covered the majority of the other differences pretty thoroughly.

I enjoy flying the G14; it's fun to set up the long, slow leading shots with the 20mm. Sometimes a break from the half second crossing shots with the K4 is needed!

Really you should fly both, as they're great fun in their own way. Plus, there is nothing quite like cursing all those slow leading shots from 400+ you get when you're in the K4 (while wishing you had taken the G14). The next sortie you can take up the G14 and count all the assists you get when the 20mm doesnt finish off those snapshots you wanted so badly earlier (but will invariably appear just to torment you). ;-)

The F is a great plane too, nothing like turning inside spits and zeroes (just be sure to use rudder and keep the ball centered). A coordinated 109 can turn on a dime.  

[pervert]

The 30mm is difficult to shoot with no matter what convergence you use because of the drop, you have to remember that setting convergence on a gun like this only really helps when your flying straight and level behind them, even then it will not hit the same spot consitantly use the .target command to see what i mean the greater the distance to target the more dispersed the grouping of shots becomes. If you imagine the convergence arc coming from the gun the moment you roll the plane the dot on the gunsight is useless same goes for flying straight down there are too many variables for to be able to set the gun up and say the majority of the time where i put the dot is exactly where it will hit. The gunsight is a reference point for shooting, becoming better will only come by experience trail and error and practice. Set you convergence to whatever you want and then stick with them and learn them.
I can see the logic in setting the guns short to reduce the size of the convergence arc and make it more consistant but then again IMO i also think the extra bit of lift in the shot can be handy for close full profile shots where i cant get my nose any higher after changing to the shorter convergences I lost a lot of that kind of shooting ability.

[pervert]

For what it's worth...

I flew the k4 a lot harder and more aggressive than a lot of people are recommending in these 09 threads. Being able to end the fight quickly with a snapshot definitely helps when you're choosing to get in against something like a Japanese bird, spit 9, or multi con engagement. If you're really interested in the 09, then try the k4. Don't let the cannon intimidate you, just get closer. It's hands down the best of the series and can beat any other plane in the set. You just want to kill some planes quicker than others...   You're not going to lose your ability to hit with the 20mm, in fact it will improve too as you will recognize better shots and work for the right angles. The tater is also on other birds, so learning it allows you access to those planes too

Thats pretty sound advice ^ btw

[sturgeon]

do a search for agent360's 109 threads. They helped me alot..... I mean they help me alot.