Lets lose the 6 view in fighters.

[snafu]

Hi All,
 I have got to say at the start of this post I think the view system in AH is 2nd to non and vastly superior to the head pivoting on a stick type view systems in most other sims. Even the "Head out of cockpit" ability is fine with me as IMO it simulates straining in the harness for a better view and is generally I only use these views for very short amounts at a time, but the 6 check view is biologically impossible. I can accept the 45degree rear lookup (Just) but the straight back 6 view no way. In a scissors fight for example you can control the fight completely by flying using the 6 view at all times. This should not be possible in a real aircraft you would contantly be looking back left then right and it would be much harder work. Even without this view the other rearward views are customisable enough to leave only a very small blind spot and this is IMO how if should be.

Just my 2c

TTFN
snafu

[BenDover]

a little expiriment:

sitting with my back to my chair; i can TURN my head about 90-100° either way,but i can look at about another 40°. So yes,it's not possible to look directly backwards.

sitting away from the back of my chair i can look almost look about 180°.

btw,both of these methods corse quiet alot of muscle strain,and crap depth perception

[hazed-]

hey if you want that much realism why dont you place a canister of petrol by your monitor with a spark plug connected to it set to spark when you get a fire on your plane and then put straps all over you
that way you can experience the delights of REAL explosions and panic as you scramble to get clear?  

ok that came out in more bad taste than i intended!  

[Westy MOL]

Sitting rigid in a chair in no way simulates how WWII pilots were strapped into in thier cokcpits. I literally wince ever time I see someone say, "take a chair....." whether used to support or deride the "virtual" 6 view.

 I recommend folks go to a museum that has "Open cockpit day" and have the guys who flew the things strap you in and then see can for yourself what the views are like.  I can vouch that the views are pretty darn spot on for the F6F, P47 and F4U. And we do not have rear view mirrors to boot. Correspondance and talking to other WWII aircraft pilots show that they did not strap themselves in as if they were on a space shuttle launch either and they had full mobility of thier upper torso, shoulders, neck and head. AH just does not model pilot fatigue nore the strain of G's in turns when looking anywhere but forward.

 Flying the CT last night on the Axis side I did find that some of the 109's DO have much too liberal of a "head out of the side of the cockpit" ability for checking 7,5 and 6 views. So perhaps some views in some planes are too liberal. But a global "6" view removal ala WB III and WW2O is bullsh&t and not real at all, imo.
 I'm however a firm supporter of not being able to go from a 7 view to a 5 view unless you go all the way around the front first.

 Westy

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Zigrat]

get rid of the head out of cockpit stuff for all planes but do not get rid of 6 view

[streakeagle]

Hazed,

How do I arrange the spark plug and fuel to detonate at the right time? Guess I should wear leather to make sure I burn correctly.
 

[Kweassa]

AH Snap view + Head movements makes it one of the most advanced and pleasant view systems amongst all other flight sims.

 I mean we're all like ".. huh..?? pu.. pu.. padlock?? Wha.. whaz tha.. that?.." It puts those flimsy easy-mode 'padlock' sims to shame  

 But yes, sometimes I do think it's too extreme. I think it is possible to squirm and lean in the cockpit to get as best a 6 view as you can, like the way we use it in AH. Look behind, move the head to left or right... this obvioulsy would simulate the status of "looking over one's shoulder..".

 But the problem happens when you look back, move head to one side(¡ç or ¡æ), then move head back ( ¡é) again. This would be like turning your head to look over shoulder, than from there, lean your body all the way front so it hits the instrumental panel.. Presto! The super "Wide Vision" 6 view as we have.

 I agree with Zig. Head movements are fine, but limit it only to range and bounds of canopy glass.. plus, limit head movements in 6 view more strictly so looking over the shoulder gives you 6 view, but very 'uncomfortable' one. (I'd say limit the ¡ékey when lloking back)

 Plus!

 Give planes with sliding canopies the advantage of opening canopies during fight  . I've heard that in the Eastern front, where most fights were fighting at low alts, most of the LaGG pilots usually fought with his canopy open  . It'd be even better if we can see this in AH. Some planes would be able to fly canopies open at low alts, and peer over the cockpit  

[snafu]

OK point conceeded.     No not really.... In a round about way Kweassa would put my point accross better than I did. Perhaps losing the 6 view altogether was not what I really intended to say. It is the adjustment of the view which I find hard to accept. Westy Yes I have sat in a few cockpits, Unfortunately all replicas (But Heya replica is ... well a replica so it should be right). I am aware that pilots were not strapped in ala the space shuttle but equally they could not get out of there seats and walk around the cockpit either and they had to be strapped in tight enough to maintain good control during positive - negative G transitions. I always understood that the lower torso was strapped in fairly tightly and the body movement was mainly from the waist up. I think it is the vertical head movement when coupled with the 6 view which is the problem.
Re visiting the AH spit cockpit for example

Here is the default 6 view

     

Here it is modified without raising the head position

     

And finally with the head position raised

     

I would prefer two 6 views, One looking either side. ie another view similar to pic 2 above but looking over your right shoulder.

You can easily control a 6 attack (So why do I keep getting shot down)     with the current system without ever having to move youre head. I maintain this is not possible in a real fighter. I accept that mirrors were used but I understood there usefulness as anything other than a quick SA awareness aid was always limited. You certainly did not get the clarity or field of vision available in our 6 view, because of vibration etc.

Hazed...
 Oh never mind.....

TTFN
snafu

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: snafu ]

[214thCavalier]

Ok if you want it that realistic when you install AH you should have to enter your personal height.
And then AH will limit your allowable vertical head adjustment accordingly  
Obviously all allied pilots were 6 ft 8 inch tall, so i guess they would have an inbuilt advantage over the Axis 5 ft 1 inch tall pilots  
Seriously though i do agree that the head adjustments should at some time be limited to reasonable within cockpit movements.
But after all it is adjustable and if its not to your liking adjust it until it is. You don't have to use the full adjustment now do you ?
Or is the real problem that of forcing your enemies to the same limitations ?
If so then adapt as you would to combat an enemy planes different FM characteristics.

[snafu]

Originally posted by 214thCavalier:
Ok if you want it that realistic when you install AH you should have to enter your personal height.

No but I do think it should be realistic to the point of human limitations. i.e. different view relationships to each other.(With helmet, goggles etc obscuring peripheral vision I would be suprised if any of the 6 views obtainable in AH fighters were "Realistic"). But Hey it's no big thing and and generally apart from this one view I think AH have an excellent compromise between ther realistic approach of say IL2 (Which I like but find hard work) and WB, CFS/2 (Which I dislike and find hard work).
 I don't accept the "If you disagree with it don't use it" approach, It is not realistic to put purposely put yourself at a disadvantage with other pilots.

I find this sim quite hard enough thank you.

 

Anyway "Puts soapbox away, Admits defeat, crawls back under rock"  

TTFN
snafu

[SKurj]

If the right and left rear views were able to cover just a little more than they do now I'd be all for it.
Afterall even linda blair had to actually turn her head to view 6, not just transfer eyes from front of head to rear through the skull


SKurj

[Toad]

I think you'll find a lot, if not most, of the aircraft had seats that were adjustable vertically to compensate for different pilot heights. Rudder pedals adjusted for leg length as well.

[LtHans]

...And I suppose all you geniuses figure everyone owns a brand new joystick with extra buttons laying around unused.

WW2OL uses the "no six view" thing, so does WB3.  It iritates me to no end that I have to do some funky, multibutton crap with one hand OFF the joystick throttle to be able to do something so natural as turning my simulated head.

You can take your idea and throw it in the lake, and if need be I will throw you in after it.

Hans.

P.S.  8-way hat switches are not the answer.  They're not on my list of favorite inventions.  You always hit the WRONG view direction when using one.  A less sensitve 4-way hat works better.

[Kweassa]

Something wrong with your thumb?

[Kweassa]

Oh, and yes, game maker's should not ALWAYS set their standards to the highest possible set of devices players can afford.. but we aren't exactly asking for head-set virtual reality goggles or something, are we?

 Players do need to equip themselves with something suited for the task. If your joystick has so little buttons (how many buttons DOES it have? Two?) that you have to change the whole stick sets to use AH style 17-way view, that is a pity, but it's also definately your personal problem rather then something to be sincerely thought about considering our discussion on "6-views".

 I use MS Sidewinder Pro 1, no force feedback. It's got a lot of buttons,granted, but really, one button to look "up" and one 8 way hat button is all it takes to use the view system efficiently.

 Did you program the whole instrument panel onto your stick or something?