Taking on the Spit 16 and the Spt 8- How to defeat them

[iTunes]

Hey guys 
Been tolling around in the 109 K4 for a little while now and I seem to be able to handle most plane types, or in other words I can give them a good fight. But the 2 Spit models that I mentioned above give me the biggest headache, I can manage my E kind of ok but that doesn't really save me, All I do now is try and stay as fast as I can and hopefully get a snaphot or two in, Anyone got any hints or tips they could share?

[Yenny]

you can probably outstall fight them at 75 knts ^_^. I've done it a lot in K4 v. Spits. Chop throttle, full flaps and time your breaks and reversal. They'd usually fly right by and you just gotta make that snapshot count or wep + flaps up and catch em.

[Saxman]

Don't get slow. The K-4 can stall fight, but she's at her best if you keep her fast. Excellent climb--both sustained and zoom--good acceleration and high top speed. Use this to keep the Spits from getting you into close-quarters where they'll have the advantage. Even in my F4U if I can draw the K-4 in close there's only rare occasions I won't have him. It's the ones that are at a distance that are the real threats.

Your guns are sort of limited, with only two 13mm machine guns and the 30mm cannon, the latter of which isn't well-suited to attacking small and nimble opponents like. However even the machine guns should cause plenty of trouble for the Spits, which aren't noted for being able to soak up damage. Use the machine guns for sighting in and at longer range, hold the tater until you get close and can't possibly miss.

[waystin2]

The 8 & 16 will more or less match the K4's climb rate at most altitudes.  If E states are more or less equal the Spitfire 8 & 16 can follow your vertical with ease.  The thing the K4 has on them is speed.  Do not give up your speed to turn and burn with the Spits, unless you have more of it to give up in the vertical.  The guys that have whacked me with a K4 have built that speed and roped me in vertical maneuvers that the Spits could not hope to maintain because of their lower top speeds.  Flaps in a K4, not sure?!?  That is for a K4 expert to answer.  What I do know is that when a pilot chooses to slow the fight down into low to medium speeds, you are playing directly to most of the Spitfire line's strength.

[FLOTSOM]

got something to add but dont have time right at the moment and didnt want to lose the thread. just ignore this for now   

FLOTSOM

[uptown]

BnZ them until all their E is gone, then shoot em in the arse. 

[druski85]

Up a 109 F.  They won't think you can out-turn them until you're already on top of em    

As for the K4.  Yea generally your best shot is to keep the E high and slowly bleed them if you can.  This can be especially tricky against a 14 or 16, but shouldn't take too long against earlier models.

[Saxman]

You realize that the Spixteen isn't a "late" model, right? Just a Mk. IX with a different engine and clipped wings.

[iTunes]

I'll just have to keep my speed up and go for a snapshot etc, Letting a 16 or an 8 anywhere near my 6 is not good! Got one on an overshoot before, But that's a risky manouver to try, especially against a decent stick.

[Phil]

Spitfires are a serious threat for any planes especially if piloted by an average pilot.
I fly Spitfires only and consider myself close to average.(Early and Mid war)
I will give the "top" guys a good sweat ! ( win or lose )

The frustrating part is that the SPITFIRE is sooo freekin FRAGILE !
The SPITFIRE cannot afford getting/receiving bit of lead because she breaks easy !

Make sure you know what you're doing when going into a "turn" fight.
The Spit can turn with many opponents....

Here's a brief description:

Spit 1  : 303's it will tickle the opponent  But can turn inside real good !
Spit 5  : Better gun platform(cannons) and good turner ! Not that fast !
Spit 8  : Good speed, good engine power, good gun package. Not that good of a turner...
Spit 9  : Bit better than 5. More Cannons, 'bit more engine power. Good turner but 5 better turner !
Spit16 : Not too familiar. Fast enough... I've destroyed 16's with Spit9 because of fair ACM tactics knowledge...
Spit14 : poor turner. Not too familiar

Hope that helps !
I'm sure other Spitfire guys can add to the above that will help you further...

Best of luck

Phil / OPP7755

[Anaxogoras]

Some won't like this advice, but here it is:

Until you're very confident with the 30mm MK 108 cannon, and very confident with the 109K itself, play hit-and-run against the Spitfire VIII and XVI.  The only advantage the 109K-4 has here is top speed, climb is equal, and everything else is in favor of the Spitfire.  Make them regret not taking a faster plane.  When you drag them behind you back to a friendly, you control the fight.

[Masherbrum]

Spitfires are a serious threat for any planes especially if piloted by an average pilot.
I fly Spitfires only and consider myself close to average.(Early and Mid war)
I will give the "top" guys a good sweat ! ( win or lose )

The frustrating part is that the SPITFIRE is sooo freekin FRAGILE !
The SPITFIRE cannot afford getting/receiving bit of lead because she breaks easy !

Make sure you know what you're doing when going into a "turn" fight.
The Spit can turn with many opponents....

Here's a brief description:

Spit 1  : 303's it will tickle the opponent  But can turn inside real good !
Spit 5  : Better gun platform(cannons) and good turner ! Not that fast !
Spit 8  : Good speed, good engine power, good gun package. Not that good of a turner...
Spit 9  : Bit better than 5. More Cannons, 'bit more engine power. Good turner but 5 better turner !
Spit16 : Not too familiar. Fast enough... I've destroyed 16's with Spit9 because of fair ACM tactics knowledge...
Spit14 : poor turner. Not too familiar

Hope that helps !
I'm sure other Spitfire guys can add to the above that will help you further...

Best of luck

Phil / OPP7755

You very much underestimate the Spit 1.   I run into some of your types from to time.   Two seconds after I pull the trigger, you're in the tower wondering "What just happened?"   

[killnu]

I fly K4 almost exclusively...and I do not keep it fast.  I chop throttle to force the bad guy to overshoot more often than not and try to suck them into a rolling scissors.  They should only have to fly in front of your guns once...maybe twice. Keeping it fast, you are losing out on what the plane is truly capable of. 

[FLOTSOM]

OK I'm back and i have a little bit more time.

now i know you all have been awaiting with baited breath for my response so i will try my best to appease your anticipation and leave you feeling satisfied and that the happy ending was worth the wait.

hey wait what are you guys doing here??

oops, sorry thought i was writing to my flock, wrong thread.....nevermind......not hing to see hear......ummmmm forget it. lets just forget i mentioned it

OK so now onto the topic at hand.

when i am engaging a spit of any kind and i am in a German ride i have come up with a standard form of counter move that seams to hold alot of promise, well it will once i have learned to improve on my targeting skills that is.

when passing the spit on the merge i have found that most of them will break into a flat turn or a slightly climbing and banking style flat turn in an attempt to come directly back in on me. now if i mimic their turn or climbed then it normally ends with the spit pilot turning in and getting an easy canopy shot or falling onto my 6 and just really ruining my day.

so here is the tactic i have come up with to counter these maneuvers.

as i pass the spitty i try to be on the belly side of it, (looking at his undercarriage).
as he goes past i begin to nose up. not steeply, but only about 10%.
i keep watching the spit through my rear view trying to angle so that he is behind me on my rightside. (just my preference because i can hold the view better)
i watch to see which direction he will turn in or if he will climb.
as soon as he shows the direction he intends to take i flip over and drop into a steep dive (split S?) watching him through my top view.
i begin to leeson the angle of my dive but i continue to dive angling back towards the middle.
when he has reached either my 3 or 9 o'clock (depending which direction he turned) i use my roll to turn my plane so that he is directly in my up view and begin to climb quickly, (not a fast not a hard climb but quickly) keeping him centered in my forward up view by working the rudder.
as i near his alt i steepen my climb and roll so that he is aligned diagonally up from my wing (either 3 or 9 depending)
just below his alt using my rudder to torque my nose in his direction and Emilemann over tightly.
normally my climb will take me just over his alt and i will be sitting just behind him inverted, i usually miss this shot every time, but the quick roll of the 109 allows me to flip over nosing down to regain a little e but keeping me within 200 to 300 off his 6 without enough speed to accidentally overshoot him.
this is where my aim fails me, i am so close and right there but i just cant close the deal by putting the tatters on the spot.

i know my explanation must sound like two martians humping on a tin roof in the rain to you with all the technical lingo, but if you can suffer through reading it a couple of times to figure out what it is that I'm trying to say (sorry i don't supply the aspirin, your on your own for the pain killers) you'll see that i am just pulling a U beneath them and using the initially superior dive and climb of the 109 to pull a tighter turn across the bottom of the spit and coming up just behind him without giving him the snapshot that they tend to be so good at.

well that is what i have been practicing, hope it helps.

FLOTSOM

[BaldEagl]

I fly both the Spit XVI and the 109K-4 as primary rides (along with the 190A-8 and F6F-5).  Most often try to keep some speed and use the vertical with WEP on.  Extend to 1-1.5K, reverse, rinse and repeat.

If you're caught slow or insist on pushing the K4 to it's limits, work the throttle.  If you keep the throttle firewalled you're asking for trouble against a Spit.  40-60% is all you need on average depending on if the nose is high or low.  You can maintain manouverability at extremely low speeds and accelerate out of a stall at any time.  Use the flaps as needed.  You can safely hold about 85 mph... slower at the top of a slight climb.  Remember to turn and roll in the direction of your engine torque whenever possible.