Understanding the "HO Joust" (tm)

[toonces3]

Hello all.

I had some interesting experiences last night and while they weren't original or new, my experiences seemed to highlight something I've often wondered about more than usual.  So here goes:

Last night I was prowling around the LW arena in an A-20.  Now, confession first- I'm not some uber stick like Snap or Cobia that needs the handicap of the Havoc in order to have a fun time.  I just like the plane for some reason.

At any rate, I was trolling around in that big furball that kept erupting around A5.  I was able to get several very fun fights, including a few 1v1s.  Good stuff!  But there was this HO Joust thing that happened 3 times, and I have to admit that I'm confused as to why they occured.

Scenario 1:  This was my first sortie.  I was flying an attack profile with bombs at about 12k.  But, a few miles from target I got engaged by a P-47D40 with a few thousand feet on me.  I jettisoned bombs and put the nose down for some speed.  The fight was ALOT of fun.  I got pinged a couple of times and lost an aileron.  While I kept the jug from getting a tracking solution on me, I took some hits and only managed a few hits on him in return.  At some point another friendly swiped him off and I rapidly got engaged by a D11.  Like the D40, the fight went several turns.  Again, I got a few hits in, but took a few hits as well.  During the fight, I got engaged by an La-5.  I switched to him, took a few more hits and lost an elevator.  A friendly swipes him off.  By now, I'm on the deck and heading through a sea of red dots.  I'm missing two flight surfaces, my right engine is smoking, and I have at least 5 cons in front of me.  So, I'm not making it home.

Immediately in front of me are two A6M5s.  I put my nose right on the first zero.  I have him centered up and he me.  But here's what I don't get.  I'm the guy surrounded by red.  I'm the guy missing an engine and I'm the one with holes everywhere in my plane.  But I'm also the one with the nose mounted 50s with 2000 rounds of ammo, and I'm in one of the hardest planes to one-pass-kill.  So, why in the world would a zero joust me?  And sure enough, I put my nose on and lit this guy up and flamed him on the pass...but, he took my wing off finally and somebody got the kill. 

Question:  With all the advantages, why would this guy commit to a joust when he could have just as easily popped up, rolled over the top, and lit me up from high-6?

Scenario 2:  I got into a beautiful 1v1 with an F4U-D.  We went several turns.  On one pass I took an extended hit in the right side which wounded my right engine. But, I still had all my control surfaces.  Through some brilliant flying on my part (sarcasm alert) I get the nose of my Havoc around just as the Hog also gets his nose around at 1000 yards out or so.  I have virtually no airspeed, just enough to get nose authority.  Again, I put the pipper right on this hogs prop and let loose.  He does the same.  This time he loses the joust and I watch as his wing separates moments before the wreckage of his plane takes off my own wing.  I get the kill.

Question:  With all the advantages, and having taken an engine of mine (meaning that, given some time I would be even more easy to kill), why would this guy commit to a joust instead of just extending low 12, popping up and hitting me from low 6?

Scenario 3:  Essentially the same as 2, but with an FW-190D9, and this time I ran him off after taking his engine, but I couldn't follow him down without ripping off my wings.

See here's the deal.  I think, if you polled the folks with whom I fought last night, they'd all agree that I didn't take a single shot on a merge.  In fact, in nearly every merge, I maneuvered my nose away from the guy and inevitably saw tracers on the merge from the other guy.  It's a two edged sword- if I merge nose on I may or may not get the HO.  If I maneuver away from the guy's nose to avoid the HO, it becomes a "high deflection shot" and the other guy shoots.

But, that's sort of besides the point.  I'm not worried about the merge-HO.  I'm more concerned with the mentality of the joust HO though.  I don't get it.

I look at it like this:  Some planes are great HO machines; in fact, I think that the HO shot is something they ought to  actually look for.  Planes like the Mossie, A-20, Typhoon, N1K, 110G2...all put out alot of cannon rounds.  The two-engine birds shoot right from the nose so they are putting out alot of fire that even a crappy shooter like me can aim decently.  And, with the A-20 at least, man that plane can take a punch.  So, if you're meeting an A-20 (for example), you should be getting out of my way, not the other way around! 

If you choose not to, at best you're looking at less than a 50/50 chance of living through the engagement.  Unless you're up against one of the truly gifted players here, if you're in any normal fighter you should be able to dance all around an A-20.  So, what's with the mentality that chooses to do the HO Joust?

This isn't a whine- don't take it that way.  I don't up an A-20 into a furball expecting to land kills too many times (but it's always pretty sweet when it happens).  I'm just trying to understand why, when given a choice of engagements, folks will choose to joust rather than maneuver for a kill they can land.  I know that whenever I come up against an A-20 or Mossie or 110, I do everything I can to get out of the way of their nose...

[toonces3]

Oh, and just so there's no misunderstanding, I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed the fights I had last night.

Although they frequently ended in a joust, they were still so much fun.

And floatsup, man, I almost almost had your tempest dude.  Man, you were so close I could touch you practically.  But that darn A-20 is so hard to slow down going downhill and well, I had to pull out or lose my wings and that was that.

Oh so close though.  Wish I had a screenshot of that moment...

[BaldEagl]

Scenario 1:  Immediately in front of me are two A6M5s.  I put my nose right on the first zero.  I have him centered up and he me.  But here's what I don't get.  I'm the guy surrounded by red.  I'm the guy missing an engine and I'm the one with holes everywhere in my plane.  But I'm also the one with the nose mounted 50s with 2000 rounds of ammo, and I'm in one of the hardest planes to one-pass-kill.  So, why in the world would a zero joust me?  And sure enough, I put my nose on and lit this guy up and flamed him on the pass...but, he took my wing off finally and somebody got the kill. 

Question:  With all the advantages, why would this guy commit to a joust when he could have just as easily popped up, rolled over the top, and lit me up from high-6?

Skilless n00blettes.  Happens all the time.  Just light 'em up and don't worry about it.

Scenario 2:  I got into a beautiful 1v1 with an F4U-D.  We went several turns.  On one pass I took an extended hit in the right side which wounded my right engine. But, I still had all my control surfaces.  Through some brilliant flying on my part (sarcasm alert) I get the nose of my Havoc around just as the Hog also gets his nose around at 1000 yards out or so.  I have virtually no airspeed, just enough to get nose authority.  Again, I put the pipper right on this hogs prop and let loose.  He does the same.  This time he loses the joust and I watch as his wing separates moments before the wreckage of his plane takes off my own wing.  I get the kill.

Question:  With all the advantages, and having taken an engine of mine (meaning that, given some time I would be even more easy to kill), why would this guy commit to a joust instead of just extending low 12, popping up and hitting me from low 6?

If you were barely able to stabalize the nose maybe he was in the same position and had to go for it.  Sometimes you just have no choice if you're too slow to manouver out of the way.

[humble]

By now, I'm on the deck and heading through a sea of red dots.  I'm missing two flight surfaces, my right engine is smoking, and I have at least 5 cons in front of me.

My take on HO's is simple, other then on the merge all is fair unless your fighting a known foe that will abide by dueling rules. In a MA furball I dont hesitate to light em up....the truth is that somebody gets around 1st. The FQ aspect shot at 1.0/800 becomes a HO at 800/600. If i've got the ammo I'll warn a guy off with a short burst sometimes. Another potential issue specific to the A-20 is that at times you cant get out of the way...all you do is lose your aim while giving the guy a huge target. As a general rule if you fly at me I'll shoot you if thats my only reasonable course of action.

As for me being an "uber" stick....hardly. Everything I do in an A-20 (or SBD, Ki-61, etc) is pretty easy to duplicate since so little of it is knife edge flying. A lot in fact is simply conversion from a one circle to 2 circle fight as appropriate with good lift vector (read throttle) management. If you look you'll see that even in an SBD i'm off the gas a lot. The hardest thing to learn IMO is speed control, learning to find and keep the sweet spot for a given situation is tough. I fly the A-20 a lot because its a hoot to fly...not because I'm "to good" {i'm certainly not} to get a challenge out of anything else. Right now i'm probably easier to kill in a F4U then in an SBD or A-20 as weird as that may sound...

[Bubbajj]

anyone that HO's anything in a zeke, given any kind of distance or warning, with the possible exception of a spit or hurc I, is a complete moron. That pretty much explains that.

As for the other, I'm with Humble, sometimes, that's all you've got and you know the other pilot is gonna spray you.

The Dora, well, a dora cant even turn with an A20 so that explains that.

A20s and SBDs and even Mossies will flop around like a spit that's had to much crack. They can be tricky little buggers and with all that punch in the nose, can really capitalize on snapshots and mistakes. Running into someone that knows how to fly em is a pain in the arse, especially if you don't figure it out right away.

[Anaxogoras]

I look at it like this:  Some planes are great HO machines; in fact, I think that the HO shot is something they ought to  actually look for.  Planes like the Mossie, A-20, Typhoon, N1K, 110G2...all put out alot of cannon rounds.  The two-engine birds shoot right from the nose so they are putting out alot of fire that even a crappy shooter like me can aim decently.  And, with the A-20 at least, man that plane can take a punch.  So, if you're meeting an A-20 (for example), you should be getting out of my way, not the other way around! 

I disagree in so far as I don't think you should be looking for pure HO shots in any plane.  Even if you kill the target, almost every plane in the game has the firepower to take you down before your hits reach their FE, or at the very least to deliver critical hits that minimize any further effectiveness for that sortie.  A big exception is if you're outnumbered and alone.  Then you should take any HO shot to take one with you.

[bozon]

I think most players do not look for the HO intentionally. They just follow their instruction set:

• 1. find a red icon
• 2. point the guns at him
• 3. start shooting

You may notice that parameters such as energy-state, aspect & plane type are not taken into consideration. This explains why so many players tend to execute pure pursuits, which are usually the worst option available. They just try to point at the target.

[Rich46yo]

Often I'll be in something like an IL-2, 1 on 1 against a nimble fighter, and the fighter will choose to HO me. He "chooses" because he's the first to turn into me and he holds all the advantages maneuver-wise. It would/should be but the work of a minute to gain advantage and a gun solution on an IL-2. I can answer your question other then maybe they just don't know how. I don't pretend to be an expert but even I know how to merge and maneuver. At least that much.

On the other hand if somebody wants to HO my IL-2 then bring it on.

[RTHolmes]

I think most players do not look for the HO intentionally. They just follow their instruction set:

• 1. find a red icon
• 2. point the guns at him
• 3. start shooting

I think it really is as simple as that. I seem to get Zeros setting up to HO my typhie all the time (and I'll be doing 300+).

From reading the forums and hearing comments ingame I've always tried to avoid HOs at all costs. However I've come to realise that people are far too precious about the HO thing and I'm losing out as a result. Starting a couple of months ago I decided to accept every HO given to me when I'm in a suitable plane (typh, mossie, jug, A20 etc), because it is a valid method of engaging, used historically, and its not a shot I've had any real practice at. Result? More kills, less deaths and (hopefully) a lesson to the red aircraft that HOing any of these planes is a very bad idea.

[uptown]

Some people are just stupid. That's all need need to understand.

[BnZs]

toonces, why look a gift horse in the mouth? 

But, seriously, a lot of new guys probably have trouble even telling whether they are closing from behind or ahead of the 3/9 line before its too late. I still occasionally find myself uncertain of whether I'm closing from the head end or tail end under certain conditions of closure with certain planes.  (P-38 for example. From direct 12 or 6, it looks like nothing but a thin line to me, even in zoom, till under 1000 yards.) I have pulled off a high-speed attack more than once to dodge the "ho" from what turns out to be their tail end.

[CAP1]

I think it really is as simple as that. I seem to get Zeros setting up to HO my typhie all the time (and I'll be doing 300+).

From reading the forums and hearing comments ingame I've always tried to avoid HOs at all costs. However I've come to realise that people are far too precious about the HO thing and I'm losing out as a result. Starting a couple of months ago I decided to accept every HO given to me when I'm in a suitable plane (typh, mossie, jug, A20 etc), because it is a valid method of engaging, used historically, and its not a shot I've had any real practice at. Result? More kills, less deaths and (hopefully) a lesson to the red aircraft that HOing any of these planes is a very bad idea.

i still do try to avoid em. i think i ho'd one guy last tour....that was a spit vs my p38j. 3 passes, he set up ho's......i couldn't get a good solution on him, as i'm somewhat new in the 38......so when i saw the 4th setup commin, rather than dodge it, i lined him up, and returned fire. he lost his plane, i lost my wing. at least it ended the endless ho passes.

[trotter]

You take it for granted toonces that, as you are an experienced player, there will come a time in almost every sortie where the enemy is in your gunsights. New players fly days sometimes without ever getting a shot off. Their first instinct is to take any shot they can get. It's hard to blame them, imagine the frustration of never getting to shoot anything. The HO is not something they enter with even the slightest trepidation, because the sheer delight of firing their guns in efficacy makes even a quick trip to the tower a tolerable outcome.

[dedalos]

Hello all.

I had some interesting experiences last night and while they weren't original or new, my experiences seemed to highlight something I've often wondered about more than usual.  So here goes:

Last night I was prowling around the LW arena in an A-20.  Now, confession first- I'm not some uber stick like Snap or Cobia that needs the handicap of the Havoc in order to have a fun time.  I just like the plane for some reason.

At any rate, I was trolling around in that big furball that kept erupting around A5.  I was able to get several very fun fights, including a few 1v1s.  Good stuff!  But there was this HO Joust thing that happened 3 times, and I have to admit that I'm confused as to why they occured.

Scenario 1:  This was my first sortie.  I was flying an attack profile with bombs at about 12k.  But, a few miles from target I got engaged by a P-47D40 with a few thousand feet on me.  I jettisoned bombs and put the nose down for some speed.  The fight was ALOT of fun.  I got pinged a couple of times and lost an aileron.  While I kept the jug from getting a tracking solution on me, I took some hits and only managed a few hits on him in return.  At some point another friendly swiped him off and I rapidly got engaged by a D11.  Like the D40, the fight went several turns.  Again, I got a few hits in, but took a few hits as well.  During the fight, I got engaged by an La-5.  I switched to him, took a few more hits and lost an elevator.  A friendly swipes him off.  By now, I'm on the deck and heading through a sea of red dots.  I'm missing two flight surfaces, my right engine is smoking, and I have at least 5 cons in front of me.  So, I'm not making it home.

Immediately in front of me are two A6M5s.  I put my nose right on the first zero.  I have him centered up and he me.  But here's what I don't get.  I'm the guy surrounded by red.  I'm the guy missing an engine and I'm the one with holes everywhere in my plane.  But I'm also the one with the nose mounted 50s with 2000 rounds of ammo, and I'm in one of the hardest planes to one-pass-kill.  So, why in the world would a zero joust me?  And sure enough, I put my nose on and lit this guy up and flamed him on the pass...but, he took my wing off finally and somebody got the kill. 

Question:  With all the advantages, why would this guy commit to a joust when he could have just as easily popped up, rolled over the top, and lit me up from high-6?

Scenario 2:  I got into a beautiful 1v1 with an F4U-D.  We went several turns.  On one pass I took an extended hit in the right side which wounded my right engine. But, I still had all my control surfaces.  Through some brilliant flying on my part (sarcasm alert) I get the nose of my Havoc around just as the Hog also gets his nose around at 1000 yards out or so.  I have virtually no airspeed, just enough to get nose authority.  Again, I put the pipper right on this hogs prop and let loose.  He does the same.  This time he loses the joust and I watch as his wing separates moments before the wreckage of his plane takes off my own wing.  I get the kill.

Question:  With all the advantages, and having taken an engine of mine (meaning that, given some time I would be even more easy to kill), why would this guy commit to a joust instead of just extending low 12, popping up and hitting me from low 6?

Scenario 3:  Essentially the same as 2, but with an FW-190D9, and this time I ran him off after taking his engine, but I couldn't follow him down without ripping off my wings.

See here's the deal.  I think, if you polled the folks with whom I fought last night, they'd all agree that I didn't take a single shot on a merge.  In fact, in nearly every merge, I maneuvered my nose away from the guy and inevitably saw tracers on the merge from the other guy.  It's a two edged sword- if I merge nose on I may or may not get the HO.  If I maneuver away from the guy's nose to avoid the HO, it becomes a "high deflection shot" and the other guy shoots.

But, that's sort of besides the point.  I'm not worried about the merge-HO.  I'm more concerned with the mentality of the joust HO though.  I don't get it.

I look at it like this:  Some planes are great HO machines; in fact, I think that the HO shot is something they ought to  actually look for.  Planes like the Mossie, A-20, Typhoon, N1K, 110G2...all put out alot of cannon rounds.  The two-engine birds shoot right from the nose so they are putting out alot of fire that even a crappy shooter like me can aim decently.  And, with the A-20 at least, man that plane can take a punch.  So, if you're meeting an A-20 (for example), you should be getting out of my way, not the other way around! 

If you choose not to, at best you're looking at less than a 50/50 chance of living through the engagement.  Unless you're up against one of the truly gifted players here, if you're in any normal fighter you should be able to dance all around an A-20.  So, what's with the mentality that chooses to do the HO Joust?

This isn't a whine- don't take it that way.  I don't up an A-20 into a furball expecting to land kills too many times (but it's always pretty sweet when it happens).  I'm just trying to understand why, when given a choice of engagements, folks will choose to joust rather than maneuver for a kill they can land.  I know that whenever I come up against an A-20 or Mossie or 110, I do everything I can to get out of the way of their nose...

For the same reasons 0s go head on with my 110.  They are not there for the fight.  They are there for the kill and I don;t mean score.  They are there to kill something, preferably someone good or someone that killed them a few times before.  If they die, they up again and do the same.  You can kill them 20 times but if they can successfully HO you, ram you, or pick you once, it is all good. 

[Anaxogoras]

For the same reasons 0s go head on with my 110.  They are not there for the fight.  They are there for the kill and I don;t mean score.  They are there to kill something, preferably someone good or someone that killed them a few times before.  If they die, they up again and do the same.  You can kill them 20 times but if they can successfully HO you, ram you, or pick you once, it is all good. 

Same ones that suicide in the ack to vulch a guy landing otr?