A6M

[Saxman]

its got good guns - No it doesn't. The cannon have awful ballistics, rotten muzzle velocity and an anemic clip. Unless you're VERY good at managing the cannon all you're likely to hit with are the twin 7.7mms, which tickle and little else unless you get a lucky cockpit shot.

can turn circles around any most any other plane, if not any other plane - And unless you're in the Early War Arena that's not going to be much good. Any pilot with a quarter of a brain knows they can't out-turn a Zero at low speeds. And they won't NEED to. Noobie Spit dweebs may try it, but virtually every other aircraft starting in Mid-war dominate the A6M2 in virtually every other aspect of the flight envelope and you're not going to rope that many into it 1v1.

and its climb is amazing. - Again, MAYBE in the Early War Arena. But virtually all the American Iron from Mid-war forward will beat it uphill because the A6M2 doesn't have WEP. The F6F, FM-2, and any F4U, P-38, P-47 or P-51 all have superior rates of climb. This DOESN'T include zoom ability.

sure, its fragile and slow, but 20ENY due ti that? i must be missing something....

The A6M2 is hopelessly outclassed by anything that's not in the Early War Arena (and even by some of those planes, as well!)

[SmokinLoon]

It's while not perfect, your whines are not pointing the inconsistencies.   Well.. cept for the Mk XIV.

So again... the D9 has the speed and the A8 has the firepower.  The A8 can take down buffs with a ever so slight burst while the D9 can get their faster but take longer to get the job done.  The D9's speed equates to an ENY of 16pts less than the A8's firepower?  No other single engine fighter can match the A8's firepower.  Does the A8 still warrant the 31 ENY???

The P47N has about 15-20mph more speed w/ WEP at all alts, otherwise they are within spittin distance of each other on mil power.  The WEP climb rate brings the N equal to the D-40 at 25k alt, otherwise the N climbs worse all the way around.  I'm still not sure why the N deserves the 5 ENY and the D-40 deserves the 20 ENY.

Ah, the old "the pilot is the difference" arguement, now I call that *hyberbole*.  I'll stand by the statment I've made since I soon realized just how "l337" some of these planes are: The plane choice makes for far more importance than anyone will admit.  I'll grab the Spit16, YOU grab the P40B and lets see who wins?  This average at best fighter pilot (extreme best is average, really) is confident enough to say "I'll win".  When I win, the excuse will be ... ??? Well, it wont be because I'm better, it will be because I have a better plane.  In a Spit16 v Spit14 battle between two similar skilled pilots, my money goes on the Spit16 everytime unless the bottom line alt is 22k then it becomes a "roll the dice" scenario.  Above 22k, the Spit14 speed advantage kicks in.

Regarding the Mossi... you're now trying to anchor your arguement in the fact that the Mossi is faster than the IL-2 and A20 and can shoot-n-run better ... ... By your argument the P40E should have a 50 OBJ score.  The more difficult it is for a plane to destroy an OBJ the better its OBJ score???  Again, I think you've miss my whole argument.  I'm not in the realm of plane performance, I'm speaking from a role perspective point of view.  I'm not saying the A20 shouldnt have the 25 OBJ (though I think the IL-2 35 OBJ is a bit too much), I'm vouching for raising ALL of the planes that performed the air to ground attack a boost in the OBJ score (and an all out readjustment).  Again... HTC's applicaiton of those scores do not follow a pattern.  Throw the burger pickle on the wall and lets see if it sticks.  I picked the Mossi to ram-rod because to me that is the attack/strike aircraft that stands out as the best (in WII anyways) and yet it recieves no reward or benefit for performing that role.    
  

  

[Boozeman]

Because it's a frigging brick with guns, unless flown by the best... all it can do is pick.The D9 is much, much more survivable.

I think you mean with friggin' big guns?! Seriously though, the "all it can do is pick (and run)" is pretty much a trademark of the D9 here in AH. So what the D9 has over the A8 in terms of run, the A8 has the clearer edge in terms of "pick". Again, does the difference in speed justify twice the ENY for the A8? I think it doesn't. I'm not saying the ENY should be same for both, but perfomance wise, the A8 is more in the 20 ENY area. 

[SectorNine50]

I've always wondered why the 109K4 is a 20 ENY, isn't it the best climber in the game?  Turns pretty well, has heavy armament, fairly fast... the only thing it really can't do well is dive.

[Bronk]

Ah, the old "the pilot is the difference" arguement, now I call that *hyberbole*.  I'll stand by the statment I've made since I soon realized just how "l337" some of these planes are: The plane choice makes for far more importance than anyone will admit.  I'll grab the Spit16, YOU grab the P40B and lets see who wins?  This average at best fighter pilot (extreme best is average, really) is confident enough to say "I'll win".  When I win, the excuse will be ... ??? Well, it wont be because I'm better, it will be because I have a better plane.  In a Spit16 v Spit14 battle between two similar skilled pilots, my money goes on the Spit16 everytime unless the bottom line alt is 22k then it becomes a "roll the dice" scenario.  Above 22k, the Spit14 speed advantage kicks in.

   

Instead of me (an average cartoon pilot) substitute widewing or levi or any other crazy "OMG how did they do that" cartoon stick. Still want to try it? IIRC Widewing was helping a certain corsair squad with "squad tactics". He fought them to s standstill in a P-39 Q, I believe there was more than 2 attacking.

So I guess it isn't so much hyperbole now is it.

[moot]

I've always wondered why the 109K4 is a 20 ENY, isn't it the best climber in the game?  Turns pretty well, has heavy armament, fairly fast... the only thing it really can't do well is dive.

It should probably be a bit lower than that.  The MK108 is probably the single biggest factor in its relatively high eny- it's hard to aim.

SmokinLoon, you're digging yourself a pretty deep hole. The A8's akin to a medieval heavy sword vs a shortsword or foil. If it doesnt end the fight with an opening critical strike, it dies quick. The D9 can match the A8's damage rate/time and in the mean time still dictate the terms of the fight, whereas the A8 will be pretty much trading survival for positional dominance, thanks to having so little thrust and agility.
Now put this in MA circumstances, instead of 1:1 or bomber strikes, and the two planes' speed and agility are even more decisive.

The pilot/plane thing: You can stress this rule of thumb so that it breaks, with extreme examples like spit16 vs P40, but IIRC even that would be doable. Widewing or Bighorn or Stang could probably beat you up pretty bad, if not perfectly. So many old hands at this game have been playing the blindfold/one hand tied handicap game for so many years... If you need a still more undeniable example, I think it's Drex or Leviathn that would outfly a top stick (like AKAK or Manx or someone like that) in a 38L using a Ju88.

The 47N probably does deserve a slightly higher ENY, the 152 as well, that's true.  The ENY and OBJ might need some tweaking but they're not fubar, tho.

[humble]

So again... the D9 has the speed and the A8 has the firepower.  The A8 can take down buffs with a ever so slight burst while the D9 can get their faster but take longer to get the job done.  The D9's speed equates to an ENY of 16pts less than the A8's firepower?  No other single engine fighter can match the A8's firepower.  Does the A8 still warrant the 31 ENY???

The P47N has about 15-20mph more speed w/ WEP at all alts, otherwise they are within spittin distance of each other on mil power.  The WEP climb rate brings the N equal to the D-40 at 25k alt, otherwise the N climbs worse all the way around.  I'm still not sure why the N deserves the 5 ENY and the D-40 deserves the 20 ENY.

Ah, the old "the pilot is the difference" arguement, now I call that *hyberbole*.  I'll stand by the statment I've made since I soon realized just how "l337" some of these planes are: The plane choice makes for far more importance than anyone will admit.  I'll grab the Spit16, YOU grab the P40B and lets see who wins?  This average at best fighter pilot (extreme best is average, really) is confident enough to say "I'll win".  When I win, the excuse will be ... ??? Well, it wont be because I'm better, it will be because I have a better plane.  In a Spit16 v Spit14 battle between two similar skilled pilots, my money goes on the Spit16 everytime unless the bottom line alt is 22k then it becomes a "roll the dice" scenario.  Above 22k, the Spit14 speed advantage kicks in.

Regarding the Mossi... you're now trying to anchor your arguement in the fact that the Mossi is faster than the IL-2 and A20 and can shoot-n-run better ... ... By your argument the P40E should have a 50 OBJ score.  The more difficult it is for a plane to destroy an OBJ the better its OBJ score???  Again, I think you've miss my whole argument.  I'm not in the realm of plane performance, I'm speaking from a role perspective point of view.  I'm not saying the A20 shouldnt have the 25 OBJ (though I think the IL-2 35 OBJ is a bit too much), I'm vouching for raising ALL of the planes that performed the air to ground attack a boost in the OBJ score (and an all out readjustment).  Again... HTC's applicaiton of those scores do not follow a pattern.  Throw the burger pickle on the wall and lets see if it sticks.  I picked the Mossi to ram-rod because to me that is the attack/strike aircraft that stands out as the best (in WII anyways) and yet it recieves no reward or benefit for performing that role.    
  

  

Actually I dont agree with that statement at all, I'll fight any and all comers in an SBD (or other plane) and do just fine. I'm not saying I'll win them all but I will bag more then a few pelts. While plane type confers certain advantages to one side in the end you have to get close enough to shoot the other guy...which leaves you close enough for him to shoot you back....

[BnZs]

I

SmokinLoon, you're digging yourself a pretty deep hole. The A8's akin to a medieval heavy sword vs a shortsword or foil.

Ah Moot, sorry old boy, but you've forced me to go way off topic...bad choice of metaphor, nothing personal.

The "Medieval heavy swords" you are talking about weigh on average 2 to 2 1/2 lbs. About the same as a Japanese katana for example, which is not really surprising, considering they both were built for the same duty, cut and thrust swordsmanship. Lighter than many handguns. Remember that velocity is a component of force and beyond a certain point, a ponderous weight actually lessons the impact of your stroke instead of increasing it.

The "foil" is a practice weapon, the heavier and stiffer weapon used in the sport of epee comes closer to an actually epee du combat/smallsword, although still a bit on the light and whippy side compared to the real thing.

Sorry folks, we now return you to your regularly scheduled airplane talk. 

[moot]

I couldn't remember the names of the musketeer and heavy two handed types of sword.  Thanks for setting me straight. The point of the analogy is in the tactical contrast, the way the former can just dance around the slow swings and just poke holes at will. i.e. The D9 can rack up just as much damage on its targets, safely, as the A8. So the 'big guns' advantage is pretty much nullified.

[humble]

I's say the "saber" is probably the closest in both form and function to a real sword (and sword fight). Back when i fenced in college we'd normally take a busted epee and weld a small ball on the end and then epoxy a small hollowed out rubber ball over it. 85% of our "fun fights" were saber and dagger deals...

[CAP1]

In MWP its ENY 25 though, thats also nagging at me...why is it lower ENY in LW than in MW?

don't know....
but i DO know that unless the guy falls for your fight, a zeke is harmless. i say this from the perspective of flying in it, and against it. stay fast, and he can't touch ya.

 in a nice furball now..thats a different story

[Anaxogoras]

The A6M's ENY is lower in late war than in mid-war?  

[CAP1]

The A6M's ENY is lower in late war than in mid-war?  

apparently.


in MW, when i fly the zeeks, i prefer the 5. it's a bit faster, so it can surprise guys that dont realize that. i can turn that plane with almost anythign in the game i think......cept a zeek2. if i'm goin into a furball in a zeek, and there's badguy zeeks, i take the 2.

<<S>>

[Saxman]

I couldn't remember the names of the musketeer and heavy two handed types of sword.

Rapier and longsword, respectively. And you are SO lucky I missed that comparison 'cause I'd have ripped you a new one over it.

humble: sabre, foil and epee are all derived from training tools for specific weapons. I believe it's: sabre = backsword, foil = smallsword and epee = rapier. NONE of which were for martial purposes, but almost strictly dueling. Additionally, modern sport fencing evolved from the TRAINING practices of each weapon, not the actual dueling itself. So no, a sabre is NOT the closest in function to a real sword and sword fight. You want to get close to actual combat go take lessons in I.33 and German Longsword.

ANYWAY, this is a discussion for the O'Club but wanted to put my $.02 in.

[BnZs]

I think I can bring this back to topic succinctly by putting it this way: I'd rather fight a duel for keeps with a sword&buckler against a guy with a rapier than with a Fw-190 A8 against a guy in a Spit16. A fellow in the latter situation is in MUCH deeper s@#$%&*. 

Rapier and longsword, respectively. And you are SO lucky I missed that comparison 'cause I'd have ripped you a new one over it.

humble: sabre, foil and epee are all derived from training tools for specific weapons. I believe it's: sabre = backsword, foil = smallsword and epee = rapier. NONE of which were for martial purposes, but almost strictly dueling. Additionally, modern sport fencing evolved from the TRAINING practices of each weapon, not the actual dueling itself. So no, a sabre is NOT the closest in function to a real sword and sword fight. You want to get close to actual combat go take lessons in I.33 and German Longsword.

ANYWAY, this is a discussion for the O'Club but wanted to put my $.02 in.