A6M

[BoilerDown]

I agree with Smokinloon's sentiment but he torpedoed his own message with his defense of his first post.  'Cause a lot of it was flat out wrong.  For instance, all P-47 have the same WEP duration, its the effectiveness of the WEP that is better in the N model.  As with any discussion, If he'd gotten his facts right he'd have a much better argument.

But yeah, the ENY system is long overdue for an overhaul.  I think it should be changed after each tour based on popularity of aircraft in the game and have nothing to do with actual WW2 performance (except for perked aircraft, which should remain minimum ENY, but have the perk amounts variable based on popularity in comparison to the other perked aircraft).

Even if the ENY criteria isn't changed, some things are obviously wrong with it, the P-47N being a 5 ENY aircraft being the foremost example.

[BnZs]

But yeah, the ENY system is long overdue for an overhaul.  I think it should be changed after each tour based on popularity of aircraft in the game and have nothing to do with actual WW2 performance

I disagree. I think "popularity" criterion are part of the reason why a P-47N has an ENY of 5 while 109Ks have an ENY of 20, despite the huge performance disparity between the two at typical MA alts.

Another factor I believe which goes into ENY is production numbers for a given aircraft type. I believe this may be one reason why again the 109K has an ENY of 20, while the Ta-152 has an ENY of 5. I do not agree with this approach.

In conclusion, I can't see the logic in perking the P-40B just because one tour everybody eats some bad 'shrooms and decides to fly it exclusively.

Even if the ENY criteria isn't changed, some things are obviously wrong with it, the P-47N being a 5 ENY aircraft being the foremost example.

Yep. The Ta-152 is the most glaring example of an unfair ENY 5 IMO. On the other end of the scale, I think the ENY of the 109K/G-14 and Yak9Us is a bit absurd.

[humble]

Rapier and longsword, respectively. And you are SO lucky I missed that comparison 'cause I'd have ripped you a new one over it.

humble: sabre, foil and epee are all derived from training tools for specific weapons. I believe it's: sabre = backsword, foil = smallsword and epee = rapier. NONE of which were for martial purposes, but almost strictly dueling. Additionally, modern sport fencing evolved from the TRAINING practices of each weapon, not the actual dueling itself. So no, a sabre is NOT the closest in function to a real sword and sword fight. You want to get close to actual combat go take lessons in I.33 and German Longsword.

ANYWAY, this is a discussion for the O'Club but wanted to put my $.02 in.

Yes and no...

The foil has no real counterpart and is strictly a training weapon. The epee is somewhat similiar but suffers in that its not really equivalent to any form of combat since it is one dimensional. The Saber having both tip and edge is closest to a true dueling weapon. Obviously there is a tremendous variety in actual swords and tactics but Saber/dagger pretty closely mimics sword play from the 1500-1700's overall...

[MaSonZ]

The A6M's ENY is lower in late war than in mid-war?  

yea, LW is 20, MW is 25. dont see logic there. shouldnt the ENY be higher (say 30?) or at least stay same in LW if its 25 in MW?

[Motherland]

I think that range and ability to carry ordinance is (correctly IMO) taken into account when assigning ENY values. This would be why the 109's, Yak's, etc. have seemingly high ENY.
I don't really understand why the Ta152's ENY is so low considering it can't take a single bomb and its performance isn't exactly stellar, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in it, but hey, it's not perked anymore, so I'm not going to complain.

[Karnak]

I think that range and ability to carry ordinance is (correctly IMO) taken into account when assigning ENY values. This would be why the 109's, Yak's, etc. have seemingly high ENY.
I don't really understand why the Ta152's ENY is so low considering it can't take a single bomb and its performance isn't exactly stellar, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in it, but hey, it's not perked anymore, so I'm not going to complain.

Spit XIV is perked despite historical poor results obtained by it in AH, extremely short range and no bombs or rockets.

[SmokinLoon]

I agree with Smokinloon's sentiment but he torpedoed his own message with his defense of his first post.  'Cause a lot of it was flat out wrong.  For instance, all P-47 have the same WEP duration, its the effectiveness of the WEP that is better in the N model.  As with any discussion, If he'd gotten his facts right he'd have a much better argument.

Actually, regarding the P47's WEP duration I went by the data given in another thread and referenced Dr Gonzo's aircraft comparison chart (my bad for not double checking info).  The WEP in the P47N only gives it a boost in speed and hardly enough to worth mentioning in climb (climb is still less than the other three P47 models).  Regardless, take all the attributes of the N and compare it to the other three in game and the 5 ENY is completely inconsistant.  At most, I would think it would be 15 ENY due to its extreme range capability and speed under WEP.

I'm curious to what else was "flat out wrong". 

So if I am hearing correctly from a few of you, speed is the biggest factor in ENY scoring?  Firepower is not?  Turning rate doesnt matter?  What about climb rate?  Ord loadout ability?  Range?  What about game stats?  If a plane consistantly shows month after month that it fairs much higher in scoring that its high ENY score shows, does that mean anything?

Oh, and for those of you who are asking why certain planes are scored differently in the MW and EW arenas it is real simply: they are the better (or best) at what they are doing in that time frame.  If there are no Spit16's, P51D's, La7's, Typhoon, or other high performing plane to worry about, the playing field changes real quick.  In the EW arena, the P38G is perked, iirc.  Ditto for the Lancaster.

[moot]

Actually, regarding the P47's WEP duration I went by the data given in another thread and referenced Dr Gonzo's aircraft comparison chart (my bad for not double checking info).  The WEP in the P47N only gives it a boost in speed and hardly enough to worth mentioning in climb (climb is still less than the other three P47 models).  Regardless, take all the attributes of the N and compare it to the other three in game and the 5 ENY is completely inconsistant.  At most, I would think it would be 15 ENY due to its extreme range capability and speed under WEP.

I'm curious to what else was "flat out wrong". 

So if I am hearing correctly from a few of you, speed is the biggest factor in ENY scoring?  Firepower is not?  Turning rate doesnt matter?  What about climb rate?  Ord loadout ability?  Range?  What about game stats?  If a plane consistantly shows month after month that it fairs much higher in scoring that its high ENY score shows, does that mean anything?

Oh, and for those of you who are asking why certain planes are scored differently in the MW and EW arenas it is real simply: they are the better (or best) at what they are doing in that time frame.  If there are no Spit16's, P51D's, La7's, Typhoon, or other high performing plane to worry about, the playing field changes real quick.  In the EW arena, the P38G is perked, iirc.  Ditto for the Lancaster.

The N's a hotrod with wep. It's also one of the toughest planes in the game, and has some of the strongest punch, as well as a very long reach, whose ballistics are the best in the game... It carries a ton of ord as well. Huge killing potential. It also has lots of range, and can maneuver with about 2/3s of the planeset. Definitely not deserving of more than 10 ENY.

[SmokinLoon]

The N's a hotrod with wep. It's also one of the toughest planes in the game, and has some of the strongest punch, as well as a very long reach, whose ballistics are the best in the game... It carries a ton of ord as well. Huge killing potential. It also has lots of range, and can maneuver with about 2/3s of the planeset. Definitely not deserving of more than 10 ENY.

The other P47 models all have the same gun packages and the N.  The D-40 can carry the same ord.  The other three can all out-turn and out climb the N. 

Really, the N has longer range and slightly higher speed w/ WEP.  I dont think that warrants a 5 ENY while the D-40 (the nearest the same as the N) earns a 20 ENY.

[Ack-Ack]

Rapier and longsword, respectively. And you are SO lucky I missed that comparison 'cause I'd have ripped you a new one over it.

humble: sabre, foil and epee are all derived from training tools for specific weapons. I believe it's: sabre = backsword, foil = smallsword and epee = rapier. NONE of which were for martial purposes, but almost strictly dueling. Additionally, modern sport fencing evolved from the TRAINING practices of each weapon, not the actual dueling itself. So no, a sabre is NOT the closest in function to a real sword and sword fight. You want to get close to actual combat go take lessons in I.33 and German Longsword.

ANYWAY, this is a discussion for the O'Club but wanted to put my $.02 in.

I thought the sabre was for martial purposes, isn't that what calvalry troops were equipped with?


ack-ack

[moot]

The other P47 models all have the same gun packages and the N.  The D-40 can carry the same ord.  The other three can all out-turn and out climb the N. 

Really, the N has longer range and slightly higher speed w/ WEP.  I dont think that warrants a 5 ENY while the D-40 (the nearest the same as the N) earns a 20 ENY.

It may not deserve 5, but it certainly deserves a much lower ENY than any other jug.  That wep performance makes all the difference IIRC.. WEP isn't just one independent aspect, it's a multiplier for every other aspect that depends on engine power. Durability doesn't benefit from it, but guns do (maneuvering for even more angles), the jug's generaly good disposition to exploit flaps also does, etc. 
I don't know the jugs all that well, but I'm pretty sure the N can beat them easily, fighting on its own terms.

[humble]

I thought the sabre was for martial purposes, isn't that what calvalry troops were equipped with?


ack-ack

As mentioned a sabre is a "backsword" meaning it has a cutting edge on just one side. There are specific advantages that evolve from such a design culminating in both the Katana and the Damascus saif. While the Sabre is often thought of as a cavalry weapon it was in fact the weapon of choice for sword play.

The Mameluke probably represents the final evolution of the saber in western/middle eastern development and is the pattern on which most current military sabres are based. The most famous probably being the Marine Corps Sabre which is based on the Mameluke sword presented to Lt. Presley O'Bannon in 1804.

[Saxman]

I disagree with them being the "weapon of choice" for swordplay. Backswords had their advantages but they weren't perfect. Since there was only one edge following one cut with another meant turning the sword to present the edge again, compared to a two-edged sword which can cut both directions just by reversing direction.

The katana is especially an interesting case because of the mythology that's grown up of it being superior to Western swords. I can give you quite a few examples of ways in which the longsword is superior.

I love these discussions, but maybe we should move it to the O'Club and off this thread....

[Karnak]

I knew a guy who was quite good with the katana and did a lot of SCA events.  he said that a European longsword and shield combination was extremely difficult to overcome for the katana and almost impossible if skill was equal.

That said, the katana was a very good dueling weapon.  Japanese armies pain yari (Japanese spear) men and naginata (short Japanese halberd, basically a wakizashi on a 5-6' pole) men more than katana men for a reason though.

[Saxman]

You're mixing up your swords.

The longsword was primarily a two-handed sword. It COULD be used with a shield but the majority of longsword was two-handed with no shield. You're probably thinking about the arming sword. VERY common misconception, and you can largely blame it on D&D. 

That being said, the true longsword STILL has a large number of advantages over the katana.

ANYWAY, we really oughta move this out of this thread.