Author Topic: Throttle control  (Read 1394 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Throttle control
« on: December 15, 2008, 08:41:47 AM »
Not that I've got any place telling people how to fly, but I thought I'd mention this anyway.

It seems to me that the vast majority of people I fly against, in all arenas, enter the engagement at full throttle and keep it there until their WEP runs out.  There are some planes - P-40B comes to mind - where you probably have no choice.  But there are not many such planes (fighters, at least).  So it might pay some of you to try pulling the throttle back some (not necessarily all the way) when you're turning, or at the top of a loop, especially if you're flying one of those aircraft with good energy qualities (think Spitfire).  Makes a really big difference.

- oldman

Offline CAP1

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 05:49:05 PM »
Not that I've got any place telling people how to fly, but I thought I'd mention this anyway.

It seems to me that the vast majority of people I fly against, in all arenas, enter the engagement at full throttle and keep it there until their WEP runs out.  There are some planes - P-40B comes to mind - where you probably have no choice.  But there are not many such planes (fighters, at least).  So it might pay some of you to try pulling the throttle back some (not necessarily all the way) when you're turning, or at the top of a loop, especially if you're flying one of those aircraft with good energy qualities (think Spitfire).  Makes a really big difference.

- oldman

chopping throttle at the top of a loop in the 38 works especially well.  :D

BTW......it is always appreciated when you guys come in, and offer up this advice!! that "which way do i turn" thread is awsome!

thanks!
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Offline ImADot

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 06:02:31 PM »
I as well am no authority, but I've taken to looking at the E6b to see what the "normal" throttle setting is.  After takeoff and climbout, I set the throttle to "normal" setting, and leave it there until I think I need to go to max during a fight.  Then go back to normal - I fly 90-95% of my sortie at normal power - you'd be amazed at how much longer you can stay flying if you don't keep the throttle firewalled.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 06:20:39 PM »
I climb up to whatever altitude im cruising at for the day with full throttle, sometimes WEP if I want to burn off some of my initial fuel loadout.  Once there it's normal or maximum cruise until I'm about to get into combat.  I try to go full throttle well before I see any enemies so that I can get my maximum speed up without diving by the time I do see them.
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Offline sntslilhlpr6601

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 07:04:07 PM »
The only time I chop throttle is when I am either avoiding or forcing a flight path overshoot.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 11:49:26 AM »
I'll be the one to ask the dumb questions...

So I understood that if you were above corner speed, that speed simply increases your turn radius (because you can't pull anymore Gs than blackout will allow). So reducing throttle there makes sense.

What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?

Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 11:56:22 AM »
I'll be the one to ask the dumb questions...

So I understood that if you were above corner speed, that speed simply increases your turn radius (because you can't pull anymore Gs than blackout will allow). So reducing throttle there makes sense.

What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?i could be wrong, but......assume, you're in a 38, doing 200, and turning hard. throttles firewalled, you've got those two allisons tring to pull your airplane straight. in the meantime, you're pulling elevator, trying to bring her 'round. so you're kinda fighting yourself. lower throttles a little, and now, you're providing enough thrust to keep going, but not fighting your control inputs as badly.

Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 12:16:09 PM »
I'll be the one to ask the dumb questions...

So I understood that if you were above corner speed, that speed simply increases your turn radius (because you can't pull anymore Gs than blackout will allow). So reducing throttle there makes sense.

What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?

I'll leave engineering questions to the engineers.  From a practical standpoint, during a turn fight it is unwise to stare at your airspeed indicator, so your ability to maintain corner speed for more than a second or so is quite limited.  Your turn radius at less than corner speed will still be shorter than your turn radius above corner speed.  Reducing throttle helps ensure this.  (Also:  Is corner speed necessarily the best turn radius, or is it the best combination of turn radius and turn rate?  Seems to me that your best turn radius will almost always be at the slowest forward speed.)


Quote
Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)

If, for example, you're trying to get good angles on a bandit in a turn, you will often be able to cut inside his turn by reducing your throttle.  If you close it completely, though, your closure rate will also decrease; so you pull the throttle back enough to observe an adequate increase in your turn radius, but not so much that you lose distance.

Also, at the top of a loop or in a very tight turn fight, closing your throttle all the way might result in a stall.  Closing it just a bit will work the turn magic without the stall.

- oldman

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 12:29:24 PM »
I'll be the one to ask the dumb questions...

So I understood that if you were above corner speed, that speed simply increases your turn radius (because you can't pull anymore Gs than blackout will allow). So reducing throttle there makes sense.

What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?

Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)


109'S (the K-4 in particular) benefit a lot from chopping throttle due to torque.  I can't comment on many other planes outside of the German set, but it is probably the same.

Next time you take a K-4 up, throttle up for a left turn, then chop throttle and kick a little right rudder for a right turn.  Someone just brought this to my attention and it made a heap of difference.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 12:43:36 PM »
What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?

Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)

There's a multitude of answers to this that might not have anything to do with corner speed.  Backing off to remain behind someone in a scissor, backing off to force an overshoot, backing off to avoid an overshoot, etc.

A lot of times in the midst of a fight I'll reduce throttle for an extended period.  One because my hands and mind are busy with other things but also because it helps manouverability.  It also disguises my gradual loss of E (speed) which seems to allow for some pretty nifty inside turns and snapshots.  I'll reach down and throttle back up if/when I need to but for several turns I won't even worry about it. 

I find this particularily helpful in Spits due to their great ability to retain E in a turn and in the K4 due to it's excessive engine strength.  I've fought entire fights in the K4 at 40-60% throttle and it's pretty nimble at that setting.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 01:25:15 PM »
THe K-4 is a monster and  I am learning quickly that it can be harnessed.  Most of comes through throttle management.  Due to the excessive engine strength mentioned, it is most noticeable in that particular plane.  Like night and day.

I have a squaddie that has been drilling into me that throttle management can make or break most fights.

And he is right  :aok                 


It's like flying a totally different plane-set, now.

 ;)
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Offline dtango

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 03:49:24 PM »
What is the advantage of closing throttle below corner speed?

Also, what are the advantages of reducing rather than completely closing throttle when you might want to decelerate? (Advantages in sim I mean, not r/l concerns with taking care of the engine or spool-up times.)

Oldman's reply is incorrect.  Turn rate and radius gets worse the more below corner you go.  This applies in the vertical as well.  This is not why you chop throttle at or below corner.

Baldeagl's reply is on the mark.  If you're reducing throttle below corner it isn't for improving turn performance but for other things.  For instance in the "Which Way Do I Turn?" thread in my last post I point out a situation in a nose to nose turn when turn radius isn't the deciding but rather the slower relative forward speed.  You have to recognize when that's the case versus not.

Reducing throttle partially vs. all the way reduces the amount of prop drag you would have.  I can't think of an advantage unless you wanted to not bleed as much speed compared to bringing throttle to idle.

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Offline Bosco123

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 05:30:42 PM »
Throttle control is a hard thing to master, when it comes to 1v1 fighting. It can, for certin, change the direction of a fight very quickly, if your not payin attention. If you reduce throttle, of course is going to give you more manuverability, it can hurt you when your doing more of a vertical E fight, rather than a dog fight, but the benifits are better than the risks. I personally, use it all the time to beat some hard people in planes that are better than me. In a G6, I know for a fact with throttle control, you can out turn spixteens just on that.
It just takes a lot of time and practice to do it right, you have to know when and were you need to back off on the throttle in a 1v1 fight.
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Offline A8TOOL

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 06:57:02 PM »
There are a few ways to describe throttle control in a corner, lets start in grade school. When ridding your bike as fast as you could would you decelerate for a corner...Why?

Now your older and driving a car. As you approach a curve set for 30 miles an hour could you do 70?  The limits for that curve might be 50+ with an average car and a good suspension. Why?   Tires are actually part of the suspension in case you did not know.

Answer to both questions is centrifugal force.

Unlike a car or bike, the only real friction you have to consider is the air itself while flying a plane.

The plane is being pulled through the air by a propeller powered by an engine and is stationary. The propeller pulls in a straight line best. As in the exemplary explanations in the posts above, your plane has to fight the engine.... or propeller(s) pulling force, while in a turn.

To turn tighter you'll need to relieve most of the force that wants to pull you forward and use the friction of the wind hitting your rudder to slow you down further, which at times can help you swing the rear of the plane out sending you in a different direction allowing full throttle to be maximized once straight again.

This Film was made for the Aces and not the masses. It explains to a minor extent how important throttle control is when in a dogfight and how to use it to your advantage when trying to line up or position yourself for a kill. It has a few interruptions and made spur of the moment. You'll see 4 or five Throttle Management Kills.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dnmjynnbh3t




Offline dtango

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Re: Throttle control
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 07:16:04 PM »
Where to start? :) 

Going slower than corner your turn performance absolutely and positively gets worse.   Why some folks think chopping throttle below corner improves your maneuverability is beyond me.  I don't know where people get the idea that the slower you go the better turning you are.  I think it comes from using the inaccurate car/bike analogy.  That's a bad analogy to use. 

Here's something I posted awhile back that I hope helps:


===================================

I think we need to clarify the relationship between airspeed and turn-radius.  Here are some excerpts from something I posted awhile back. 

Corner velocity is where an aircraft's maximum turn-rate, and minimum turn-radius occurs for a fixed aircraft configuration (e.g. no flaps etc.).  Have a look at one of Badboy's past Energy-Maneuverability diagrams:



Here's an EM chart of the Spit MkI, Hurricane MkI, and Bf-109E.  Notice the turn-radii for the aircraft.  Turn-radius never gets smaller than the turn-radius at corner speed.  Infact turn-radius actually increases the slower you get below corner speed.  So what gives?  Simply put, in a level turn below corner speed an airplane cannot generate as much lift as is possible at higher speeds up to corner, thus it can't turn as sharply.  The reason is turn-radius is also a function of the maximum g-loading / turning-bank-angle that the aircraft can attain.  Here is the level turn-radius equation:



Eventhough a lower airspeed reduces the numerator, the denominator also reduces with airspeed.  Maximum turn load-factor "n" (g-load) and maximum turn bank-angle "theta" vary in direct proportion to airspeed.  The lower the airspeed below corner, the lower the max g-load / bank angle an airplane can achieve.

Why is this?  Because the slower we go below corner speed, the less lift we are able to achieve and thus the less we're able to turn. 

In a level turn we need "vertical" lift to not only support the weight of the aircraft, but we also need additional lift in the "horizontal" direction to create angular acceleration to curve our flight path.  Thus to turn we need to create more lift than weight of the airplane and incline the airplane at a bank angle to take advantage of the additional lift to turn the plane.  The tighter the level turn, the more lift is needed in the horizontal direction as depicted below:




 
Remember that lift is directly proportional to lift coefficient (Cl) and airspeed squared.  To increase lift we can either increase Cl by increasing angle-of-attack (elevator input), increase airspeed, or both.  In a max performance turn, we can easily attain maximum lift coefficient by yanking back on the stick regardless of airspeed.  If Cl is fixed at it's maximum through elevator input the only other variable that varies is airspeed.  So if you're at Clmax and low airspeed, this is lower lift than obtainable compared to Clmax at a higher airspeed.  Lower airspeed => lower lift => less capability to turn.

So how do we explain the charts from Dok Gonzo's website where turn radius is lower for lower airpseed?  It all has to do with high-lift devices like flaps and slots.  Remember that we can increase lift by increasing lift coefficient.  High lift devices like flaps increase the maximum lift coefficient of an aircraft.  This means this increases the amount of lift capable and also reduces the airspeed to create equivalent lift in a turn compared to the same aircraft without the high-lift device deployed.  Here's another EM Chart from Badboy to demonstrate.



Notice the P-38 with no flaps vs. with 5 notches of flaps.  The flaps enable the P-38 to decrease it's turn-radius from 800 ft (@260mph) down to below 600 ft (@195mph).  This is because the flaps allow the aircraft to obtain a higher maximum lift coefficient.  With flaps this enables the aircraft to obtain the equivalent lift with no flaps but at a much lower airspeed.  Notice however that with 5 notches of flaps that the turn-radius increases (turn performance is getting worse as we now expect) the lower below "corner speed" the airplane goes.

I hope that helps to enlighten the topic.

Tango, XO
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:17:53 PM by dtango »
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