Buff guns strengths- "study"

[Urchin]

Well, I corralled a fella (Redwolf, and a big <S> out to ya man  ) into helping me with my "study".  We were both tired though, so we didn't get past the initial ten test run, which was 190A8 vs B17 (tail guns only).  As a note, on the first run where I took 30 hits, I did NOT die.  I flew past B17.  I lost the engine, suffered a whole pile of damage, but the plane was still flyable.  On 9 of the 10 attacks, the engine went about halfway through the "burst" I took (he was firing really short bursts to make sure every round hit, I'd lose the engine about halfway through, then lose a wing [7 of 10] or the tail [2 of 10].

Anyway, here is what we came up with for the results.  These results were obtained by flying a 190A8 straight and level behind a B17 while the B17 fired only its tailguns.  We obtained the number of rounds fired by checking the ammunition counter before and after every kill.  He did miss with 1 or 2 rounds on perhaps half of the kills he said.
He started firing when I crossed d500- that may skew the results, we'll have to try different ranges.

26,29,27,22,32,30*,26,30,15,18.

Works out to an average of 22.5 .50 caliber rounds hitting to kill a 190A8, the "armored" "buff-killer" 190.  That number is actually shockingly low to me, it usually sounds like more hits than that.

[popeye]

How did you fire only the tail guns?

[iculus]

From the six:

Easy shot. You have armor piercing bullets flying through your engine.  Also, at that distance you can't really expect armoured glass to do much.  Historically, the dead six approach would get you killed pretty quick.

[SKurj]

popeye u can fire just the station you are at, or all guns.  I have all when in buffs mapped to my trigger, and station on my b button

SKurj

[popeye]

Ya learn something new every day.  Thanks, SKurj.

[Tac]

secondary fire button will fire only the turret/station you're in. Primary will fire all guns that can bear.

[whels]

before u go making assumptions on armor
read this page. it states that armor
and armored glass was believed and exspected to stop 50 cal and 20mm rounds as close as
300 yards. and that estimate didnt account
for angled armor that reduced even more peneitration and the bullets hitting the planes skin, inner structures and such which reduce pen even more. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-ar.html


whels


 

Originally posted by iculus:
From the six:

Easy shot. You have armor piercing bullets flying through your engine.  Also, at that distance you can't really expect armoured glass to do much.  Historically, the dead six approach would get you killed pretty quick.

[Maverick]

Whells,

Are you saying the engine compartment of a 190 is armorplated in the front? I don't recall any armor in te leading edges of wings in that plane either.

I understand about the armored glass and about armoring the cockpit. Crew safety was an intent there. I don't recall any other plane other than the Stuirmovik to specifically armor the nose, engine compartment and cockpit area combined. Last I saw from looking at the plane thwe Soviets also didn't armor the wings like they did te forward fuselage.

I didn't see where taking 20 hits from a 50 cal in the engine or wing should not down a plane or cause significant damage. Especially if they are fairly concentrated area wise hits.

Having said that please be aware I don't think buff guns are something to take lightly in this game. I understand the intent to give, what are frequently lone players, a chance to survive to perform their mission. Don't mean I have to like it!  

Mav

[Urchin]

Actually yes, as far as I know the engine compartment WAS armored in the 190a8.  I don't think it was a lot of armor, but I do think it was.  

Actually, I want to do a number of things with this "study".  I want to compare various buffs to see if the .50s are the same strength in all cases.  I also want to compare various fighters to see how "durable" they are.  It is actually my impression that the 109G10 is a lot more durable than the 190A8 is, at least when it comes to the .50s mounted on the B17.  I have some small success in hunting B17s with the G10, I usually mount the 30mm and go up after them.  I usually don't mount gondolas when I mount the 30mm.  I usually get hit by B17s when I'm attacking them, and I usually survive- it seems like the 109G10 can take more hits from a B17 than a 190A8 can.

[funkedup]

There was not a single piece of armor the Fw 190 (any variant) that would stop a .50 cal at close range.  And the A-8 in AH is the standard model without any of the armor modifications.  I'm not saying it's modeled right, just an FYI.

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[Vermillion]

Ummm sorry guys but your wrong.

The following documents are out of the Fw190A8 pilots manual and details the armor of the Fw190A8 and A8 Sturmbock.

Armor Layout & Location http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-armor-2.jpg

Armor Specifications http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-armor-1.jpg

From the diagram and table you will see that the only armor that protects the engine front is the ring around the outter edge protecting the oil cooler. It is 6.5 mm in thickness.

Both the Hispano 20mm and Browning .50 will easily penetrate that armor at normal engagement ranges.

Edit: hehe me and funked posted at the exact same time  

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Vermillion ]

[whels]

Of course fighters that entered service during the war had the benefit of experience, which allowed a more efficient distribution of armour. The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 had a 13 mm plate to protect head and shoulders of the pilot, 8 mm seat armour, some 5 mm and 6 mm plate to fill in the gaps around the seat, and an armoured windscreen 50 mm thick. Armoured rings of 5.5 mm and 6.5 mm were installed around the lip of the engine cowling. An unique modification was the Fw 190A-8/R-8, modified to attack US heavy bombers from a close distance. Most fighters were protected only against from the rear and front. But the /R8 modification provided protection against fire from the sides as well, because this could be expected when the fighters got close in the bomber formations. The nose and headrest armour were made heavier, 30 mm armourglass was fitted to the side of the canopy, and 5 mm plate was installed at the sides of the cockpit and behind the instrument panel. The wing ammunition boxes for the 30 mm cannon were also protected, for any explosion of the ammunition would be fatal.

and

How effective was the armour? It's thickness varied from 8 mm to about 13 mm. The armour was certainly effective against rifle-calibre machineguns, but these weapons were increasingly replaced by far more powerful medium-calibre machineguns or by cannon. The American .50 AP M2 round, a projectile with a high muzzle velocity, was expected to penetrate 1 inch (24.5 mm) at 100 yards (91 mm) and the AP-I M8 round still 7/8 inch. However, such armour penetration figures are traditionally measured against a homogeneous "standard" plate, while the armour plate fitted to aircraft would be face-hardened plate of good quality, to achieve maximal protection for minimal weight. Also important was that before it could hit the armour, the projectile had to pass through the aircraft skin and maybe structural members, which would deflect it or slow it down and was likely to cause tumbling, which would considerable reduce armour penetration. In this way relatively thin plates could greatly increase the protection. Equipment in the aft fuselage could be carefully arrange so that the bullet would have to pass it first, before it could hit the pilot. Finally, typical firing distances were of the order of 300 yards. Most airforces seem to have felt that the armour of their fighters offered substantial protection against .50 and even 20 mm rounds.

The Spitfire F Mk.21, a late war model, was considered protected against German 20&nsbp;mm AP rounds in a 20 degrees cone from the rear, and against 13 mm rounds from the front. The US Navy expected fighters to carry armour able to stop a .50 rounds at 200 yards. Early in the war the relatively slow projectiles of the Type 99-1 cannon were often stopped by the armour of the F4F. Protection against US .50 rounds was the required standard for German fighters. Indeed it would not have made much sense for most German aircraft to carry armour that would not stop the .50 at combat distances, for this was the standard weapon of the USAAF, the enemy that was most often met in daylight combat.


 

Originally posted by Maverick:
Whells,

Are you saying the engine compartment of a 190 is armorplated in the front? I don't recall any armor in te leading edges of wings in that plane either.

I understand about the armored glass and about armoring the cockpit. Crew safety was an intent there. I don't recall any other plane other than the Stuirmovik to specifically armor the nose, engine compartment and cockpit area combined. Last I saw from looking at the plane thwe Soviets also didn't armor the wings like they did te forward fuselage.

I didn't see where taking 20 hits from a 50 cal in the engine or wing should not down a plane or cause significant damage. Especially if they are fairly concentrated area wise hits.

Having said that please be aware I don't think buff guns are something to take lightly in this game. I understand the intent to give, what are frequently lone players, a chance to survive to perform their mission. Don't mean I have to like it!  

Mav

[GRUNHERZ]

Oh yea before any of you USA 50cal deathstarlaser fanatics attack whels last post please take note that that info comes from your guys internet fighter info god "Joe Baugher"....

[dracken1]

all this thickness of armor against 50 cal and cannon fire is all very interesting (really).but when you apply this to a game,where do you stop.we've all lost control surfaces but what about control cables something a spits humble 303's could sever. cannon and heavy mg rounds puncturing a fighter and hitting nothing vital still caused your plane to take on the handling qualities of a super mart shopping cart there seems to be many reasons for a plane to plummet earthwards small hles becoming larger caused by you doing 300 plus air disruption over frayed control surfaces setting up vibration,the recoil of quad 20's popping rivits from an already weakened plane.they can't all be included.  

[tofri at work]

Our modest wish for the FW190 models is only the damage model of the M16.

Is that to much ?