Norwegin Aces

[Bronk]

indeed

and had Diablo and Hangtime been in charge at Corregidor they would have made MacArthur stay and expected the garrison to fight to the death. anything less and they would be burger-munching surrender monkeys right? 

Ummm Mac left and it was surrendered anyway. That's the point. The revisionist just keep yelping "but the king ran so how could norway have surrendered?".
I'm thinking There was more of fight for the defense in the Philippines than norway. That was just territory and not homeland.

 

[Angus]

The king lead a government in exile so that the cards he had could help the Allies.
That was the Norwegian merchant navy, BIG at the time, as well as all those armed forces that got away (and kept getting away). So you had vessels and soldiers. You also had a resistance system which pulled quite some nasty stuff to the Germans, and the German bully-back was also evil.
It would have been much easier to surrender and collaborate, but that is just not what happened. There was neither an approved surrender, nor negotiations. Norway was overrun and power was shifted by the victor. This definately resulted in the dark times Norway had in WW2. Something unknown by living U.S. civilians.
And Hangtime:
"Norway became the cradle of German R&R in WWII. Hardly a shining example of national resolve and courage. They have no just claim for anything beyond token resistance. They CAN claim the definition of collaboration. That point HAS been settled. Quislings."
That point has not been settled, nor will that silly claim. Instead of calling you names and following steps like these, I will go back to Kasserine and correct some of your points. It must hurt to have to look at defeats and routings while trying to remember ONLY the greatest moments, however it's okay to have the facts clear. As with Norway....

[Bronk]

The invasion of Iceland, codenamed Operation Fork, was a British military operation conducted by the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines during World War II.

The invasion began in the early morning of 10 May 1940 with British troops disembarking in Reykjavík, capital of neutral Iceland. Meeting no resistance, the troops moved quickly to disable communication networks, secure strategic locations and arrest German citizens. Requisitioning local means of transportation, the troops moved to Hvalfjörður, Kaldaðarnes, Sandskeiði and Akranes to secure landing areas against the possibility of a German counterattack. In the following days air defence equipment was deployed in Reykjavík and a detachment of troops was sent to Akureyri.



The invasion force consisted of 746 marines, ill-equipped and only partially trained. Although it succeeded in its mission, it was manifestly insufficient to defend an island of 103,000 km². On 17 May, 4,000 troops of the British Army arrived to relieve the marines. Later American forces occupied Iceland for the remainder of the war.




Wow even less resistance. Guess the Finn blood didn't make it out of Finland.

[Grits]

"Official" surrender or not, government in "exile" or not, when you leave your country and your women to be pillaged by the Germans you have de facto surrendered. Dress it up in semantics any way you want to help the loss of your self esteem but it does not change the facts. End of story.

[caldera]

"Official" surrender or not, government in "exile" or not, when you leave your country and your women to be pillaged by the Germans you have de facto surrendered. Dress it up in semantics any way you want to help the loss of your self esteem but it does not change the facts. End of story.

Bingo.     Now if their indomitable egos were there to defend Norway, the German's would have ran screaming. 

[Angus]

Wonderful comparison Bronk! I'll give you a part here, since you will have to read years without ever catching what I have on that subject...
The Icelanders came from Norway and the Brisish isles, not Finland ,BTW.  Iceland does not have an army, or any defences at all (except the cost guard and SWAT, hehe), nor back then. And the British were our friends, solving the danger of getting between the hammer and the anvil in any way. We were already doing pro-brit trade deals at the time, and the RN was all over the place.
You may bear in mind that the "invasion" was supported with cruisiers with ample firepower. HMS Berwick?
Of course there was no resistance. Our folks gathered up to say "Hello" etc, and followed the soldiers with curiousity all over the place. The place of interest was the German embassy. The not-liked ambassador was there, protected by diplomatic laws, but not any more. So he got busted.
My neighbour (now dead) guided the Navy guys to port. My grandfather who was a fisherman at the time had to abort his fishing day, but eagerly watched when the ambassador was seized.  
It was a relief, the Brits were there. They were ill equipped and not stocked up properly but that was solved when possible. Unlike the Germans, they wouldn't just take things, they would buy them, although many people would simply volunteerly aid them or give food etc.
They took over the defence of the country, and dind't meddle in the nations affairs, so there was a completely different issue than in Norway. Business went up with a boom.
Some Icelanders joined their forces or already had, like my great uncle who saddled on with the RAF and went ace with them. He embarked one month earlier by trawler, when the seafaring was already getting dangerous due to U-boats and mines of the Germans.
That became a threat, so we were bombed and lots of boats were sunk. My granny lost 2 of her brothers that way. Well, after all, we were working with the Brits with free will (without even bothering about the choice) as well as the Americans which were not in the war at the time, just watching.
Our losses came roughly to the same % as of the USA, almost exclusively seamen. Registered losses to the war presents a low number, since there were many missing.
Those were the days, and I was lucky to grow up with people who were there at the time, as well as getting to know more who also were.
Anyway, I guess Bronk and Hangtime WOULD HAVE opened fire on the crowd piling up on the peer thereby sealing their fate as the two dumbest persons on the planet.

(Sidenote. An Icelander grabbed the rifle off a Marine, and swiftly loaded it with a cigarette, handed it back and said "You should take better care". Now isn't that just about the coolest possible in the position?)

[Bronk]

The Icelanders came from Norway

My point exactly if they were finns , they would have drove off the invaders with butter knives. If that's all they had.

[E25280]

Wonderful comparison Bronk!

Indeed it was.  It would seem Iceland put up almost as much resistance against the Brits as the Norwegians did against the Germans.

[Angus]

A try with sheer ignorance.
The British didn't even attack, they just docked. No wonder, - Allies you see. Welcome!
But in Norway...the German leading battlecruiser with the VIP's on boards as well as the SS was sunk by a shore battery before reaching Oslo. Not to all the effect, since the fist actually LANDED on the Oslo airfield. The capital fell before fighting started so to say.
Now name me a capital in WW2 where after falling there was still fighting going on(with no hope) in 6 weeks?

[Rollins]

Chicago

[E25280]

It would have been much easier to surrender and collaborate, but that is just not what happened.

But there was a sizable collaborationist movement within Norway.  sample link In many ways I can understand that, as many in Europe considered Stalin a bigger threat than Hitler.  Why not embrace that fact, rather than try to run from it?  Iceland didn't consider the British to be a threat to their way of life, perhaps the majority of the Norwegians felt the same way about fellow nordic German stock?

That point has not been settled, nor will that silly claim. Instead of calling you names and following steps like these, I will go back to Kasserine and correct some of your points. It must hurt to have to look at defeats and routings while trying to remember ONLY the greatest moments, however it's okay to have the facts clear. As with Norway....

Not sure why you keep bringing up Kasserine, as it really has nothing to do with the point, nor does it bolster anything you have to say.  In fact, it quite damages your point.  In one battle, the US lost almost as many killed in action as the Norwegians lost during their so-called fight to save their country.  Despite the drubbing the US forces took initially, they eventually halted and then reversed all the German's gains.  They didn't sit and wait to be pounded, they regrouped and counter-attacked.  Not sure exactly what the six Norwegian divisions were doing while the Germans were there, but with so few battle dead, it sure doesn't appear they were counterattacking with any vigor.

[Angus]

It is estimated that some 90%+ of the Norse were opposed to the Germans. Collaborators having a hard time then, and sometimes being killed. Hence, the resistance system was quite firm and effective.
So, the Norse endured torture, camps and executions.
Now most nations would have collaborators. Norway did too. But the size of their opposition (some in very close co-op with the UK) was impressive.
Embracing Stalin rather than Hitler? The Scandinavians went both Anti-USSR as well as Anti-Nazi when Stalin went for Finland. Why? He did it with a German agreement, just as was the case with Poland.
It was a hard time for Scandinavian commies you bet.
Now Kasserine is another issue. It is directly aimed at mouths like those of Hangtime, which claim that this and that would not happen or have happened if the Norse or their troops had been U.S.
Kasserine is the first time the US forces meet the Germans in a major engagement. This is years after the Blitzkrieg and the Allies were on the offensive. Material was ok, and there was plenty of information about how the Axis fought. Yet the US got their arse handed to them, and while Hangtime read up about the eventual outcome he skipped some of the more juicy parts, which I want to show him.
Just hate that attitude :"I would have", or "My nation would never", or "Our army would have", based on own gas and lack of knowledge. blehhh

[Hangtime]

Now, winter war.
The tough Finns played their cards right, and IMHO they are the ultimate example of doing things right.
They were aided somewhat though, first by the western allies, then by the Germans.
They may have saved them from being overrun by the USSR by refusing to advance further at Leningrad (Great disappointment to Hitler), - anyway, had the USSR decided (later) to grab them, I do not see them standing up to that. A deal was better.
But comparing the winterwar to the Norwegian campaign is like an apple vs a tomato. Why?
Ok, Finnish army stronger, mobilized to defend against THAT enemy. THAT enemy came with wrong estimations and with very little/wrong preparation and thereby poor performance. And THAT enemy did not have the capital and largest cities in it's hands on day one. Now name me some big towns quickly in USSR hands...
And here's one for you
(Image removed from quote.)
Norse volunteers in Finland.

It's simple really. Norway could not have won the fight without the western Allies, which had to abandon when the war started on mainland Europe. But the Finnish could stand ground more or less between their homes and the Russians. A totally different thing.

Angus... tsk, tsk.

You missed a small point.... on December 6, 1941 (Finland’s Independence Day) England declared war on Finland and Canada followed suit a day later. Imagine that.. Democracy's declaring war on a Democracy fighting for it's freedom from oppression from communists. What a world.

You'd think Finland would take the hint and just 'roll over' like Norway did, yah know?

Finland, by her insistence on fighting Russians and regaining her territory, and by using whatever the hell came to hand to do it with (including Germans at one point) wound up at one time or another tossing out first Russians then Brits, Germans, Norwegians in Kraut uniforms and anybody else that had designs on Finland.

They remained Free... unpopular. But Free. Gotta admire that.

Norway Surrendered.

LOL.. and as to Norways support for Finland prior to Norway's Surrender.. compare and contrast the 900 Norse Volunteers with the 8,700 Swede Volunteers that showed up. ROFL!

Norway Surrendered.

Hey, Angus; great write up on Iceland in the war... enjoyed that. BTW, is Nils still under his bed with the germans while his allies (you) continue with his defense?

[Hangtime]

Now Kasserine is another issue. It is directly aimed at mouths like those of Hangtime, which claim that this and that would not happen or have happened if the Norse or their troops had been U.S.
Kasserine is the first time the US forces meet the Germans in a major engagement. This is years after the Blitzkrieg and the Allies were on the offensive. Material was ok, and there was plenty of information about how the Axis fought. Yet the US got their arse handed to them, and while Hangtime read up about the eventual outcome he skipped some of the more juicy parts, which I want to show him.
Just hate that attitude :"I would have", or "My nation would never", or "Our army would have", based on own gas and lack of knowledge. blehhh

C'mon Angus.. I'm well aware we've lost battles.. run into lines we were unable to crack, failed offensives; you want me to list them? Anzio breakout? The fight for the Monte Casino? The Poles took that after we failed. Holland? There's plenty there...

But, you brought up Kasserine.. and it just so happens I'm real familiar with how that ended up, since the unit I served in 25 years later was the Division that held them and threw 'em back. And they (and we) were rightly, justifiably proud of our unit history. But yes; you are correct; we had our tulips handed to us for 3 days by a better officered and better trained german force. We learned. Quickly. VERY quickly. The point is, when we took a beating; we didn't just quit, toss in the towel and concede when blood got spilled and the news was bad.

Matters not how many time we get knocked down. What matters is that we stand back up.

As to Norwegian Resistance.. great Hollywood stuff. Norwegians in turtlenecks on skis!  Wow!! brave Norway! LOL! Doesn't change the fact that the birth rate under occupation skyrocketed, that the country became a functional puppet of germany and that the place was treated with kid gloves compared to Poland and Czechoslovakia under the boot.

For further enlightenment on Norwegian attitudes relevant to German Supremacy review the fate of the Norwegian Jews, both during the war and the efforts made by other Scandinavian governments after the War. Norway did almost nothing.. Even denmarks efforts to protect it's jews far exceeded the Norwegian efforts.. but as with all things Norwegian during the war, 'token' best describes it.

Norway Surrendered.

So did Nils.. can't win a battle by not showing up... but Angus, I admire your determination. <S!>

[Angus]

Hangtime, tsk tsk. First response:
Now, where to begin? (I actually enjoy this)...hmm, yes:
"You missed a small point.... on December 6, 1941 (Finland’s Independence Day) England declared war on Finland"
And? I am actually surprized it wasn't sooner, since by Barbarossa started months earlier making the USSR allies in a whiff, and Finland saddled on with the Axis mighty swiftly. (Maybe it was clever, otherwise they'd have been at war with Germany...perhaps). So, the UK started a lot of operations against the Finnish, right?
Oh, and Norway did NOT surrender, and 900 is....900. More than the Spartans 
As for under bed, I have to get INTO the bed with a German tonight, - my wife 
Second response:
Kasserine. Nice to know you're familiar with it, but I'll allow myself to fill in some...parts, since the Norwegians are under fire for buckling without surrender after 6 weeks of fighting the Germans.
- 3 days is...not fighting for 6 weeks.
- by those 3 days the US who were not taken by a surprize attack by one who was not an enemy a day before retreated as far as they could get.
- They had ample opportunity to know what they were up against, unlike the Norse.
- The German attack started, what on the 19th of feb, and the retreat was quite a bit for 2 days. Axis attack would be more correct, since a major Italian force was applied.
- The first allied success was at Thala when the BRITISH artillery denied the Axis the oporunity of cutting off the US 9th infantry.
- Thala was held with an amalgam of British, US and FRENCH forces, thereby enabling the application of using the US arty of...48 guns. They did fine. In the following day, the British were in the frontline. The Germans had to submit to the combined arty and withdraw.
- Another attack (Sbiba) was stopped by the Brits.
- Rommels thoughts: "Rommel was largely contemptuous of both the U.S. equipment and fighting ability and considered them a non-threat" (Wiki)

However, there were allies around, and an available buffer to learn from the mistakes made as well as getting better at estimating what one was up against. That was one chance the Norse did not have, since (my guess) more than halft the civil population was under Axis command in the first day. (Oslo counts alone for some 25%)
I do not think that swapping those armies (Norse 1940 and US 1943) would have made a difference fighting the Germans. So I guess the US would have surrendered? Well "Rolled over" you'd have put it....
Now, birth rates. From the top of my head in most countries during the war...up. Human nature. Jokes aside though, mothers to babies of the occupation force in Norway had a tough going and were "branded" for life. I know the norse word for them. If you think they had a booming increase due to horizontal collaborating, you are pissing into the wind.
And the resistance...well, here is some matter that indeed has been filmed, such as the heavy-water plant sabotage etc. Some act also damaged the Tirpitz as well as a network of spotters aided the British with air-raids, anti-shipping and commando raids.
There was also an "ice" wall against the Germans, such as never speaking to one (or pretending not to understand) and not even sit beneath one, i.e. on a bus. This pissed the Gerries so well of that it was made illegal not to sit in a bus if there was a place....
In all, due to resistance and intelligence fed by the Brits, the Germans had some hundreds of thousands of troops tied up in Norway. Wouldn't have been nice to run across those in Tunisia now would it.....
(However, my number data here is not consistent. This is a common reference)
So....determination mode off, I am off to bed to happily surrender to Germany