Perking Bomb load out's

[Karnak]

That single point of convergence is 600 yards and cannot be changed.  This makes the guns on the drones 90% useless.

[Ack-Ack]

What angle is this that simultaneously gives you a enough firing time have a certainty of dropping the buff, carries no risk of collision (especially if you get some warps or frame rate slow down), doesn't expose you to defensive fire either coming in or going out, and sets you up to take out the next drone in a timely manner?

Hint: Don't say "come straight down on 'em", because that ain't it.

Come in at a steep angle, pointing your nose at area between the cockpit and the nose of the bomber.  Your rounds will impact around the cockpit/wing root area, usually resulting in catastrophic damage to the bomber.  Take out the drones first so you avoid the warp collision of the drone warping to the lead position.  After you make your pass, extend a little ahead of the bomber then pull into a vertical climb, loop over and repeat the attack.  3 passes, 3 kills, no damage.

It really is that easy to kill a buff in AH and you don't need a cannon equipped bird to do it, 4x .50 calibers is enough to take out any bomber in one pass.  Last tour I think I was 65-6 against bombers, out of those deaths all were from collisions when I hit the lead bomber on my first run instead of a drone, resulting in a collision when a drone warped to the lead position.


ack-ack

[moot]

Oops.. I meant 90deg horizontal and 45deg vertical or more.. Yep, you need to be ahead and higher.. rest is like AKAK says.. SOP. You must be doing something wrong to take pings every single time.

When I'm in American planes with wing mounted 50 cals, I'm usually firing & shredding buffs at D800. One of my favorite buff hunters is the P-51B. "Only" 4 .50cal MGs...

Were you here back when we still had the big tennis ball hit sprites and less granular DM?  Back then you could do that from 1K out.  It was great to connect shots like that.. 1/2 second constant bursts.. Laser-like.  You didn't even need speed to take em down. With a P47 or even a real stable platform like the F6F, you could do those shots from very low speed and way below and behind. Even time it so that your shot happened in sync with the plane's nose-drop departure from hanging on its prop.

[SmokinLoon]

Perk the bombers.

Ar234
Lanc
B24
B17
B26

They all should have a perk score applied to a certain degree. 

Perking the bomb loadout is like asking Mike Tyson to put some extra padding in his boxing gloves.  It is still going to hurt like a &%$#@.  Each bomber is able to carry X pounds of ord, whether that package is delievered in 24/100lb bombs or 6/1000lb bombs is regardless.  Perk the planes ability.  I suppose I could be swayed to perk only the 500lb and higher ords, perhaps it would allow for mor eof the 250lbs and 100lb bombs to be used?

Stop and think about the raw damage those bombers above are able to deliver AND defend themselves at the same time.  The Ar234 is perked for a single attribute: speed.  What are not the Lanc, B24, B17, and B26 perked for their ability to destory and defend themselves?  Some can argue that the Ju88's should be perked as well, it can carry more ord weight than the B17.  How much of the ord above 4/500kg bombs is usable is another story.  I wont vouch for the Ju88 to be perked, it has a very particular nitche to fit in and its defensive capabilities are marginal at best.   

[Lusche]

All of the fighters you've named have convergence issues that reduce their effective range to perhaps half of the turret-mounted .50s. They are pinging you well before you can do anything but waste ammo.

The greater physical distance between buff guns from different planes makes convergence an even bigger issue for them. Fighter firepower is much more concentrated at longer ranges.

To illustrate that point:

Case: A P-51 is shooting at a formation of B-24s at 800yards. B-24's are firing back.

The buff drone tail turrets are about 220 ft apart. When shooting at D800 (200yds beyond bomber gun convergece range) that results in a spread of 73 feet between both turret's bullet streams. Including the lead plane's tail turret, there's a distance of 37 ft between the bullet streams. As the P-51's wingspan is 37ft, it's clear that only one turret will achive hits at that range.

Now the P-51: It's outer guns are about 15ft apart. Assuming a standard convergence range of 400yds, the spread is 15ft at D800. Compare that to the B-24's wingspan of 110ft. With proper aim, all 6 MG's will hit the same wing.

[Karnak]

What are not the Lanc, B24, B17, and B26 perked for their ability to destory and defend themselves?

Because as even the most cursory investigation would reveal, they can't effectively defend themselves.

[Beefcake]

I think people want bombers to be completely unable to defend themselves because they're incapable of properly setting up an attack. As a veteran buff pilot I would venture to say 75% of people that attack my formations come from dead 6, high dead 6 or low dead 6, and whats sad is they usually take out one of my buffs before I can down them. These comments about taking drones away and making buff pilots form up with each other wouldn't solve a thing. Back in pre-drone days it was hard to get anyone to group together, and when we did, we would die just as easy as a formation does today.

[BnZs]

So you are saying the gun positions from the drones don't aim at the same point the master gun is aiming at?

To illustrate that point:

Case: A P-51 is shooting at a formation of B-24s at 800yards. B-24's are firing back.

The buff drone tail turrets are about 220 ft apart. When shooting at D800 (200yds beyond bomber gun convergece range) that results in a spread of 73 feet between both turret's bullet streams. Including the lead plane's tail turret, there's a distance of 37 ft between the bullet streams. As the P-51's wingspan is 37ft, it's clear that only one turret will achive hits at that range.

Now the P-51: It's outer guns are about 15ft apart. Assuming a standard convergence range of 400yds, the spread is 15ft at D800. Compare that to the B-24's wingspan of 110ft. With proper aim, all 6 MG's will hit the same wing.

[Karnak]

The guns on the single bomber you are firing from do not converge, they fire parallel.  The guns from the drones fire parallel to the other guns on that drone.  The bullet streams from all three bombers converge at a range of 600 yards.  Because of the distance from each bomber in the three ship formation the guns from the drones can only hit if the target is near the convergence range or if the gunner misses badly with the guns from the bomber he is actually in.

The common myth seems to be that the guns of all the bombers converge on the target in the gunner's sights.  That is simply not true.

EDIT:

The main thing the drones brought was nearly tripled durability (it is easier to shoot the drones down because of the defensive gunner's angles) in the form of three, on the fly, lives and tripled payload to compensate for the decreased accuracy when the bombsight was changed (harder to calibrate than the one we have now) and bomb drift was added.

[Spikes]

I wont vouch for the Ju88 to be perked, it has a very particular nitche to fit in and its defensive capabilities are marginal at best.   

Honestly, the pea shooters on that thing are pretty deadly. I've downed countless planes who think they can sit behind me while I pound away at them when the ventral turret and they eventually lose a wing.

[Anaxogoras]

Honestly, the pea shooters on that thing are pretty deadly. I've downed countless planes who think they can sit behind me while I pound away at them when the ventral turret and they eventually lose a wing.

Lower your throttle and you can hit with the dorsal turrets at the same time.

[BnZs]

  After you make your pass, extend a little ahead of the bomber

During which time you are vulnerable to the nose/ball turret or nose/top gunner positions. I have taken damage/been shot down during this phase out to D1000. I would suggest that if they are not shooting at you on the way out from these two positions you are not dealing with a very good gunner. Increasing your distance faster by extending away in a steep dive or energy-bleeding jinking about can make you a harder target but also interfere with any timely execution of step two. And step two...

then pull into a vertical climb, loop over and repeat the attack.  3 passes, 3 kills, no damage.

...requires a very high initial energy overhead which may not even be possible for all fighter to maintain for 3 consecutive passes, especially at high altitude. And that is making the relatively optimistic assumption that 3 passes will do it, which may *not* be the case if is B-17s instead of B-24s with their magic wing-root fire button, or if you are keeping your airspeed especially high to minimize your vulnerability during the extension as described in step 1.

[SmokinLoon]

The more I think about perking the bomb loadouts the more I am warming up to the idea and here is why:  If a B17 takes up 6/1k bombs it can do a lot more damage and take out a lot more specific targets vs the the 24/100lb bombs.  The 24/100lb bombs are going to be used to carbet bomb a town or field, and the tonnage is quite different as well (6k vs 2400lbs).  Im still not %100 sold on the idea of perking bomb loadouts instead of the plane... but we'll see.

The big question now is are ALL of the bombers going to have the 500lb and up ords perked regardless?  Are we goin gto perk the B25's 3/1k bombs?  What about the B25's 6/500lb bombs?  The TBM's 2000lb bomb?  Or are we only talking about the B26, B17, B24, and Lanc? What about the Ju88?  If the plane is perked... much of the problem is soved.  Perk the bomber based on its ord capablity and range, with defensive ability being a consideration (B24>B17 in defensive guns but the B17>b24 in dmg absorbtion).  Oh, and what about the Stuka and its 1800kg's of butt humpin'? You going to let that go without a perk?  If one wants to talk about having a bomb loadout perked... you cant ignore the Stuka.  

btw.. as for the Lanc to be perked in EW, it is right on vs the other bombers.  Why the issue?  The Lanc is even MOAR powahful in the EW than in the LW arena.  I guess I'm still unsure why we're looking at perking other than the aircraft.  It is that single AIRCRAFT that delivers the dustruction, the bombs dont get there alone.  And as far as the new guys not being able to take the perked bombers... *gasp*.. ya mean they might have to learn how to bomb with the Boston, B25, Ju88, Ki67 or TBM (none were on my list to perk)??? Oh the horror!  The thing is, the perked value I suggested would be easily reached.  I suggested those bombers be perked, but not perked out of reach for the new guy like the Ar234 (or as devistating if lost).  

Bomber perk points are the easiest to earn of any perks able to be earned.  We earn so many but are able to spend it on so little.  There is nothign wrong with taking up a set of bumbers *responsibly* and not bombing and bailing or flying at 5k over a large airfield.  Fly the buffs right and the chance of getting shot down is minimized.  Get those buffs to 18k+, get an escort or 2, and THEN enter the combat area.  

[Airborne]

The slaved gun's firewpower are equivalent to multiple .50s with a single point convergence, like an A-20 except typically the buff formation has more than 6 guns firing at you. And of course, a turret is a much better aiming platform than a A-20.

 All of the fighters you've named have convergence issues that reduce their effective range to perhaps half of the turret-mounted .50s. They are pinging you well before you can do anything but waste ammo.

Furthermore, given the lack of warning regarding buffs (even within the radar ring they are just another dot, they really should have some identification as a buff formation and rough altitude) and the fact they run full-throttle from takeoff to landing, all someone *can* do to reach them before they drop bombs many times is come in from the rear quarter.

just another blob on radar just like on the primitive radars back in the day.......... and just like back then, most fighters that were able to attack bombers were ALREADY at altitude waiting...... not trying to lift and climb hard onto the bombers 6, barely above stall, just floating their pancaked out for an easy shot..


CAP  (Combat Air Patrol) if your base is a HVT (High value target) to the enemy, gain some alt, and go look for  bombers.. I do it a decent amount, and its pretty rewarding

[Lusche]

So you are saying the gun positions from the drones don't aim at the same point the master gun is aiming at?

Yes. As Karnak already explained, they converge on a single point. And actually that is 500yds, not 600 as I wrote earlier (I'm always messing that one up ). So the spread is even bigger than the 37ft I posted.

Fuzeman made a better illustration than my dry math: