Thoughts on the P-47N

[Anaxogoras]

I have to say, Blitzen, I think you and the others underestimate the extra initiative you can have with the N vs the D.  Initiative isn't something concrete like turn-rate or climb.  It's dictating the terms of the engagement.  The main arena isn't always a good test of superior initiative because there are plenty of bad pilots who do dumb stuff, e.g. suffer a really bad overshoot in their La-7 against your D-11 (whereas if I were in the La-7 you'd be dead).  Superior initiative is also amplified with wingman tacitics.  A pair of Ns should beat a pair of D-11s every time assuming they have equal pilots, but because of the arena environment we are over impressed with the 1vs1-Bruce-Lee-ability of a D-11 over the N.

Btw, I was in a 109K-4, not a 190.

[BaldEagl]

The D-11 and the D-25 are my two favorites here, particularily the D-11 for it's turning ability.  It just so happens my last two kills in a D-11 were a Spit XVI and an La-7.  The D-40 is really nothing but a bomb truck and unless your flying over 20K regularily I see no reson to have the N at 5 ENY.

I love to get down in the weeds in a Jug but I want a few other planes around so I'm not the sole focus of attention. Jugs seem very happy in multi on multi engagements.  If you can start with a little alt and keep the speed up they are dangerous in thse situations.  It seems to me that it's fighting abilities are very similar to the 190's except they give up a little climb rate for better turning abilities. 

I can attest to the three axis manouver mentioned above.  If you can get it to the top and apply full elevator, ailerons and rudder you can really haul the nose around but you want to do this with a little alt (3-5K) so you can re-gain your (lots of) lost E in a subsequent dive.  Jugs are also really good at rolling scissors/barrel rolling as an offensive manouver.

Well, that's my unrequested $0.02.  Oh, and take the light 8x.50 package, 100% internal fuel and no drop tanks (D-11, D-25).

[Rebel]

Well, that's my unrequested $0.02.  Oh, and take the light 8x.50 package, 100% internal fuel and no drop tanks (D-11, D-25).

I'm curious- why no drop tanks?  The Jug is one of the most weight sensitive planes in the game- at 50% with a drop tank, you can get up to fighting alt half way (1/2 a sector, 12,000 feet), just when the tank runs out- punch the drop tank, and you're at fightin' weight right away. 

[BaldEagl]

I'm curious- why no drop tanks?  The Jug is one of the most weight sensitive planes in the game- at 50% with a drop tank, you can get up to fighting alt half way (1/2 a sector, 12,000 feet), just when the tank runs out- punch the drop tank, and you're at fightin' weight right away. 

Just preference really.  I fly almost everything with 100% internal and no drops.  There a few planes I drop to 75% internal and in the Spits I do carry a sipper but that's about it.  I just like to take off and not have to think about it.  The airframe is clean, the fuel is burning off, there's no additional induced drag on my climb out and when I see a con I'm ready to go.

[Anaxogoras]

Any aircraft should climb better with the fuel of a drop tank held internally instead.  Since the P-47's climbrate is glacial, I also don't take them.

[Rebel]

Hmmph.  Never thought of it that way, really.  I was more concerned with the ability to control the weight at the final moments before the fight. 

The climbrate's already glacial.  I guess I don't count a drop tank as that much of a hinderence.

*shrug*  another fine example of different strokes, I guess.

[Stoney]

The P-47N is the most capable Jug all the way around.

1)  First, remember this dogma:  "Tho I shall fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for a clean November Jug is a fast mother f-er."[at any altitude]

2)  If you husband the WEP for when its truly important, the N is always faster than about 3-4 planes in the game, at any altitude

3)  Once you have the P-47N at about 1/4 tank of fuel, with perhaps half of your ammo remaining, you're beginning to approach Spitfire-esque levels of wing loading and (on WEP) power loading.

4)  7,000 feet above ground level is escape altitude--if you have this much altitude, you're only about 8 seconds from showing 500 mph after a WEP assisted dive.

5)  I take 75% internal and no drops with the N, as I'd rather have the induced drag of the extra weight than the parasitic drag of the drop tank.  I have no scientific evidence to prove this is more efficient--just my gut.  As soon as I rotate and begin to climb, I immediately switch to the wing tanks, and burn off whatever is left in them at the 75% fuel condition.  After they are empty, the Aux tank goes next.  I like the maneuverability advantage over the fuel-leak prevention technique.

Lastly, I love this plane, but have no idea about why it has a 5 ENY.  I believe the N Jug deserves a solid 5 OBJ rating, but a 5 ENY is a bit low.  When I began playing AHII, the P-51 had a 5 ENY and the November Jug had a 12 ENY.  I think those are probably correct, but I'm not HTC.  Also, given that the OBJ rating is what is used to govern attack scores, the 5 ENY cannot be related to its ordnance capability.  It must be because of its air-to-air capability only. 

[BnZs]

The D25 is the best in my opinion because it's a mixture of the D11 & D40. It has the maneuverability of the D11 with the engine and high alt performance of the D40 and the visibility as well.

I can tell you that if you duel Widewing with a D-25 vs. his D-40, the D-40 will win every time. All that vertical power makes up for any turning deficit.

As the N was the PTO Jug version and the D11/D25 was the ETO versions i tend to sway my style towards the ETO. And that's why I truly believe we need the P47M. It was the ETO hot rod jug and it would make a great addition to the jug series as it was indeed the fastest of the lot.

Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.

[MjTalon]

Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.

That's the thing. How can the N be a sub for the M when they both were in two different Theaters?  Bring on the M! 

[Stoney]

Efffin' A. I consider the N poor substitute for the M we need in LW.

I don't think anyone should have any expectation that the N is a substitute for the M.  They're truly totally different airframes.  And, while I'd like to see the M as much as anyone, "need" is a strong word in the face of all the other holes in the planeset.  We'll get the M someday--just not in the near future.

[Wingnutt]

It is incorrect that the Jug is a poor performer low and slow..   in a 1v1 its as deadly as any other plane in the game given its flown correctly..   reason being the firepower, if your a decent shot, all it takes is 1 good overshoot and just a split second of having the great 8 on the target and its all over.. the other guy will be sitting in the tower still hearing rounds hit (don't you hate that)

I don't fly the N because i don't feel its ENY is justified, its only better than the D40 under WEP and only in certain ways, having 4x the value of the D40 is kinda goofy.

I fly the crap out of the D40 though and as much as I like it, I have to say its a terrible "furball" plane..  and by furball I mean what you usually see as a furball in the game..  cons coming from 2 bases, meeting at middle at 8 or 9K and swirling to the deck mostly picking cons off of other peoples 6 till they themselves get picked..   You will almost NEVER make it home in a jug by doing that you will get anchored, find yourself on the deck, and get run down by a numbers guy in a LA/Spixteen/pony  if you turn to engage him you will start to get the upper hand and get picked by one of the 3 other guys that were also fallowing you.. if you try to run.. they will catch you..

the only way to really have much success in a furball is to come in higher than normal, doesn't have to be stratospheric but enough to where you can make a shallow dive into the frey..  blow through taking snap shots, don't get anchored, egress and regain your E.. and come back..  thats about the only way to have much luck at surviving more than a few min..  you will probably get called a picker or whatever but.. well you cant be expected to sit there at 250mph on the deck swirling around with a bunch of spits and zeros can ya.


1v1 its lethal, you can drop flaps and wallow around with much of the plane set. again perhaps not for a VERY long time, but like I said.. it only takes 1 very brief snapshot to deal catastrophic damage, so its not like you have to be able to saddle up D200 and whittle away...

Ive made many kills on people trying to run me down by simply chopping throttle when they are 1.5 out to increase the rate of closure, make a hard break then a break back and get a passing shot as they fly by.

[Wingnutt]

I don't think anyone should have any expectation that the N is a substitute for the M.  They're truly totally different airframes.  And, while I'd like to see the M as much as anyone, "need" is a strong word in the face of all the other holes in the planeset.  We'll get the M someday--just not in the near future.

Holes in the planeset?

we have the spit lineup, and the uber perked 14 (debate away)

we have the 109 lineup and the uber K4

we have the 190 lineup with the uber Dora

we have the Hog lineup with the uber -4

we have the 51 lineup with the uber D


then we have the jug lineup with... what??   it should go D11, D25, D40, N and then the uber M

but we dont.. 

its like if we had all the 51s EXCEPT the D or all the hogs without the -4.. you get the idea..

hows that for a "hole"

[Hajo]

First of all the P47N was designed as a long range escort for B29s in the Pacific Theater. That's why the fuel capacity.

Second, because it was designed for the PTO it did not have to climb rapidly or maneuver.  It wasn't designed to.  

It fought in the PAC against chiefly inferior Japanese aircraft.  The P47 models that preceded it were more then adequate

in fighting Japanese fighters.  They just didn't have the long range requirements needed from land based aircraft in the PAC.

Models.....the D40 is best suited for play in the MA.  Its WEP is basically the only difference between it and the D25.  There

are a few minor differences between the D25 and D40 but the HP of 2800 in the D40 was greater.

Unless you are flying higher then 30K the D40 is the choice.  Anything lower the D40 can out horse the D25 or the D11.

Now....turn rate between the models would depend on the speed at which the turn is made, weight, including fuel onboard

and ammo.  At certain weights any Jug can turn with the D11.....or for that matter any aircraft in AH depending on cornering speed.

So...when comparing turn rate you have to compare the speed of the turn.  Apples to oranges.

Acceleration.  Hands down if you get a Jug and P51 same speed, say 140 mph the jug will out accelerate the pony.

If you stall the pony you are dead.  If you stall the Jug it accelerates faster nose down.  If you get the P47 to 140 mph

and you have a P51 at same speed......the Jug will turn with the P51 and close the distance while doing so.

these are just some of the experiences I've had with both aircraft.  The P51 gets out of shape quicker, and takes longer to

recover then a P47.  

Also try this.  When flying 25K and climbing I tried a test in both aircraft.  The Jugs manifold pressure stayed at around 50 while

climbing to 30K and above while the P51s manifold pressure dropped.  The Jug maneuvered much better then the D9 or the P51 and the K4.

At 30K a K4 tried the old nose up and outclimb trick.  the D40 I was in not only outclimbed the K4 but ran over it in speed while climbing.

Wing configuration of the Jug differs from the 109s , P51s and FWs.  The wing and the engine combination of the Jug at that alt is

superior.  The only thing close is the F4U4.  The tempest is fine until it reaches ~22K at which time it becomes mediocre.

Just mho for what it is worth.

[Stoney]

With 4 variants, including the "uber" N model, we have a fairly robust Jug line up.  Even though we don't have the most numerous variant built (the D-22/23) nor the least numerous model built (the M), compared to what some other players have to deal with in this game, we have it made.

Be patient, the M will arrive in due time.

[Krusty]

Also try this.  When flying 25K and climbing I tried a test in both aircraft.  The Jugs manifold pressure stayed at around 50 while

climbing to 30K and above while the P51s manifold pressure dropped.  The Jug maneuvered much better then the D9 or the P51 and the K4.

That's nothing new. The P-47s are so large and heavy because they have turbochargers on the engines. Like the P-38s they maintain full MAP all the way up to critical alt (30k-ish??), whereas most planes in the game have 1- or 2-stage superchargers that kick in and out at different altitudes.