Author Topic: Pulling lead  (Read 5191 times)

Offline mtnman

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2009, 01:37:56 PM »

Yenny's General Stats for Late War Tour 107
Total Sorties: 55
Total Sortie Time: 05:46:58
Sortie Type         End Sortie Type
Fighter    3         Landed    5
Attack    52         Discos    1
Bomber    0         Bails    12
VehicleBoat    0         Ditches    3
FieldGunner    0         Captured    7

  Deaths    27



Picking a player apart based on those aspects of rank really doesn't have any bearing on this subject (aiming).  Yenny's overall stats don't tell us whether or not he can hit what he's aiming at.  Looking specifically at his fighter rank ( hit %) would be more applicable.  Even that's worthy of some speculation (shooting primarily bombers?).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:41:34 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2009, 02:16:33 PM »
If you're having trouble with aiming, I've never seen how turning your tracers off would help. 

As someone whos taught many people how to shoot effectively in real life, one simple aspect has always come into play.  They always need to know how they've been shooting, in order to see where correction is needed.  The feedback of where past rounds went is vital.  In real life we use a paper target for that, in air/air we use tracers for that.  Once the basics are learned, that can be dispensed with, but getting rid of it too early results in a much longer, more discouraging learning period.  And at the end of it, I can't say the student has mastered shooting any more as a result of a tougher learning period, but rather that they simply take longer to reach the same point.  And taking longer to reach the same point allows the other student to progress even further beyond that point.  I guess I don't see the advantage.

Imagine shooting at a flying clay target with a .22.  Bird flies by, you fire and miss.  Why did you miss?  High, low, too much lead, too little lead, not swinging through?  No feedback, since your bullet left no lasting mark on the sky...  Now try again, but lets change the angle and speed of the target.  You miss again.  Why/where?  What do you need to do to hit the target?  Lets try again, but lets change the speed/angle of the target, and pull you around on a cart.  Did you miss again?  Why?  Even if you do manage to hit one, why did you hit it?  What did you do right?  Or did you do something wrong that allowed your incorrect aim to result in a hit (held your cheek off the stock, maybe?).  That could make things even tougher by teaching you to repeat the incorrect aim.

When shooting at flying clay targets with a shotgun, we even have feedback.  Two forms come to mind.  One, the flying wadding (even though it's not terribly reliable/accurate, it does give a rough idea...).  And two, experienced shooters looking over your shoulder and giving feedback.

Is it possible to learn to shoot with no feedback?  Yup.  But it's time-consuming and discouraging.  If we made the .22 rounds visible in flight your learning would be much quicker, and much less random.  Even if the .22 round was visible, but not exactly accurate in it's perceived flight, it would be more helpful.  For example, you could learn that the round needs to "appear" to fly directly in front of the target for a hit.  You can easily progress in learning because you'll find your tracers going consistantly behind your target, or above it, etc, and learn to correct for that tendency.  You can't do that without feedback form previous rounds fired.

What can you learn with no feedback?  How quickly would you learn math if you were rewarded for correct answers, ignored for wrong answers, and no feedback was given for how you erred on the wrong answers?

I'd get closer, leave your tracers on, try the Lead Computing sight, and start trying to figure out where you're consistently missing, and why.  Learning what would have made your past rounds hit will tell you exactly what you need to do to ensure hits in the future under similar situations.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline BnZs

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2009, 04:17:08 PM »
Picking a player apart based on those aspects of rank really doesn't have any bearing on this subject (aiming).  Yenny's overall stats don't tell us whether or not he can hit what he's aiming at.  Looking specifically at his fighter rank ( hit %) would be more applicable.  Even that's worthy of some speculation (shooting primarily bombers?).

I've watched Yenny's films and he is in fact a good shot, consistently killing at all manner of deflection angles.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline iTunes

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2009, 04:21:03 PM »
Aim for where they are going to be-not where they are.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2009, 04:31:39 PM »
Aim for where they are going to be-not where they are.


I know "where" they are going to be, its "when" that screws me up  :(

Offline BnZs

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2009, 04:44:38 PM »
Somehow it is the "alignment" that gets me missing snapshots the most.

Say there is a crossing snapshot on somethings beam, I'll have sufficient lead and open fire in time but find that I'm shooting under or over.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline iTunes

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2009, 04:52:13 PM »

I know "where" they are going to be, its "when" that screws me up  :(
What you firing fugitive? 50's, hispanos, the german stuff etc?
The Class Acts.
JG54 Grunherz
iTunes- UK's finest killer of ack huggers and runners, mixing business with girls and thrills.
JG54/ Manchester United- Nobody likes us-we don't care... Goes by the name of Wayne rooney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW-47c_8J4c

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2009, 09:05:22 PM »
What you firing fugitive? 50's, hispanos, the german stuff etc?

I'm an equal opportunity shot misser  :)  I spend most of my time in American iron, 38's, 51's, 47's. I do enjoy flying other planes. Spits for quick base defense, 109s when I have a bit of time to get up, and so on. I know jumping from plane to plane isn't helping me any, but like I said most of the time I'm in the american stuff.

Offline Ghosth

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2009, 11:31:00 PM »
Mntman, first off on your clay targets example. Which btw is a great example.

But you don't start off trying to shoot them at 50 yards, with slugs. You start off with a shotgun, with an open choke, at 20 yards, with #8's, with someone watching over your shoulder. On a bet, I proved that in a hour I could shoot a silver dollar sized target hand thrown with a bb gun. Started with pop cans about 5 feet in the air, after 30 minutes I was able to work my way up and out till I was hitting washers with a tape over the hole as far up as he could fling them. And by the end of the hour I was nailing 4 out of 5.  But you start small and close and work up to it. Feedback, yes. I agree, and yet.

On tracers, if your looking at your tracers that you just fired, what are you not looking at?

The enemy plane.

Granted tracers are a personal preference.
But most people in here with gunnery problems have been shooting with those tracers.
So sometimes the solution is to change the normal. Force them to concentrate on a new way.
Remove the habit, start over with changes.

Take away everything but the the sight, and the enemy plane. Then up a low slow turning plane, get them to get CLOSE, then hit you. Then start calling targets, left wingtip, right wingtip, tail, cockpit
With time, practice it is very possible to take someone with gunnery problems and in half an hour get them
back on the road to good shooting again.

It takes feedback yes, but thats MY job. :)

Offline Delirium

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2009, 03:09:11 AM »
I agree with Ghost on this one, removing tracers made the difference for me a long time ago. I do also feel the anyone firing 30mm should keep tracers enabled until they are very comfortable with their aim, as the muzzle velocity of most of these guns is pretty bad when compared to .50 cals or many 20mms.

Even using the lead computing site in the TA for more than an hour or so can make someone reliant on that 'crutch'. It is ok to use it to get a feel, but it can further frustrate someone in the long run.

My best advice is to take a plane up offline and work the drones until you can 'one pass' them from 180/0 degrees AoT, and gradually high speed snapshots 90 degrees AoT. I still do this if I have been offline for some time, just as warm up.



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Offline mtnman

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2009, 06:45:58 AM »

But you don't start off trying to shoot them at 50 yards, with slugs. You start off with a shotgun, with an open choke, at 20 yards, with #8's, with someone watching over your shoulder. On a bet, I proved that in a hour I could shoot a silver dollar sized target hand thrown with a bb gun. Started with pop cans about 5 feet in the air, after 30 minutes I was able to work my way up and out till I was hitting washers with a tape over the hole as far up as he could fling them. And by the end of the hour I was nailing 4 out of 5.  But you start small and close and work up to it. Feedback, yes. I agree, and yet.

That's awesome Ghosth!  We used to do something similar.  We'd toss a marble up with one hand, quickly shoulder the .22 and shoot it.  That looks impressive, but is easy once you have the knack/timing.  Teaching/learning an "advanced trick" is great, but it's just that.  Something for someone who already has the basics down.  If someone I was teaching couldn't hit a basic paper target I wouldn't switch him/her over to tossing stones or marbles in the air...

I do some trick shooting with my .54 flintlock rifle.  I can shoot the flame off of a candle at 30 yds, standing position with no rest, and without touching the wax.  From that same standing position, at the same range, I can cut a playing card in half by shooting through it edgewise, cut a piece of dental floss in half, shoot an axehead to cut my ball in half and break clay targets on either side, etc.  I'm skilled enough to no longer need the feedback of where my bullet goes when I miss (as long as my rifle is sighted in).  I didn't start out that way though.  I learned the basics with a lot of feedback.  There was a day I could shoot aerial clay targets with my bow, and even a slingshot, but I'm way out of practice now, hehe.  I could probably still do it with the slingshot, since I still play around with that.  I haven't shot my bows in 5 years  :^(

Delirium- I agree excessive use of the lead computing sight can be detrimental, and should only be used as a starting point.  I found myself watching the aim-point instead of the enemy plane way back when I first used it.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline iTunes

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2009, 12:07:29 PM »
I'm an equal opportunity shot misser  :)  I spend most of my time in American iron, 38's, 51's, 47's. I do enjoy flying other planes. Spits for quick base defense, 109s when I have a bit of time to get up, and so on. I know jumping from plane to plane isn't helping me any, but like I said most of the time I'm in the american stuff.
All I would say is try and not take the low pecentage shots, you seem to be using the best weapons for firing, could be lag or whatever, I'd say try and have a little more patience, get in close, go offline and just keep practicing, I use the tater a lot and that puppy drives me insane sometimes, I've now got a feel for where I sould be aiming so I'll see how the next few days pan out.
The Class Acts.
JG54 Grunherz
iTunes- UK's finest killer of ack huggers and runners, mixing business with girls and thrills.
JG54/ Manchester United- Nobody likes us-we don't care... Goes by the name of Wayne rooney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW-47c_8J4c

Offline Belial

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2009, 06:15:49 PM »
I use to have trouble pulling lead, my solution was some reading online.  I set a button on my joystick "View head position move left", and i also fly in the page up position.  Both of these together allow me to avoid that pesky, dang i lost him under my nose moment.  People turn hard i look around my nose and split them in half.  Still gotta get into position to make that shot though, which i am still learning.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2009, 01:04:42 AM »
When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.

What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.

Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2009, 06:54:57 AM »
When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.

What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.

Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.


I agree with all of this.

- oldman