Author Topic: The Basic M4 (Sherman)  (Read 27235 times)

Offline USCH

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 02:01:45 PM »
I would say the design and philosophy behind the Sherman was deeply flawed, as evidenced by it being the first and last tank designed behind this philosophy. I know the use of armor was in its infancy, or close to it, at the time. But If other major powers got it right, that tanks should be designed to kill other tanks, then why didn't we? Since then we have never looked back. We are just lucky we got the other elements of combined arms right and that we had some brilliant generals. We still should have gone to war with a better tank.

The Sherman wasn't a complete failure. It actually was a pretty decent tank. But it was not a good tank on tank, tank. We simply mobbed the German armored divisions. Mobbed them with combined arms, complete control of the air, and an almost limitless supply.

The game I think doesn't really reflect the realities of the actual war that made the Sherman worthwhile. In the game we are pretty much killing other tanks with tanks. Even the Panzer lV and its high vel gun would far outclass the Sherman. Fireflys and T-34s would chew them up and spit them out. Especially since they cost so few perks to up, perks easily made up for with wirbels.

I dont blame the purists in the game for wanting the tank. I too am one. I love historically correct elements being in the game and historically correct operations. But I think a more worthwhile addition would be a very fast TD, or even a light/scout tank. After all we already have an M-4 tank. I dont see how getting a second one, with a far less effective gun, would help anything.

My thoughts anyway. :salute
I agree with all that you say here yet i still want one too  :D
mabee the big gun tanks (tiger T34/85 firefly) should be perked coler to the same making them less likely to be upped as often.
right now as i have seen it the tiger seems to be rare just cuz it dosent take any hits from the firefly like it used to frome the panzer and t34, not because of its perk value. or because of its perk cost?... kind of like why up an 30perk tank when the 3 point one does better or at a min.. the same anyhow...

Offline E25280

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 08:11:27 PM »
I would say the design and philosophy behind the Sherman was deeply flawed, as evidenced by it being the first and last tank designed behind this philosophy. I know the use of armor was in its infancy, or close to it, at the time. But If other major powers got it right, that tanks should be designed to kill other tanks, then why didn't we? Since then we have never looked back. We are just lucky we got the other elements of combined arms right and that we had some brilliant generals. We still should have gone to war with a better tank.
Incorrect.  The Germans used the same philosophy with the 37mm armed PzkwIIIs being for anti-tank role (37mm being the standard German AT gun of 1939) and the PzkwIV armed with a low velocity 75mm howitzer for infantry support.  US armored doctrine was roughly based, or rather reinforced, by the German successes of '39 and '40.

Furthermore, the IVs were only upgraded to use true AT guns after encountering the much heavier armored Russian tanks after Barbarossa.  During the initial invasion they were still intended to be infantry support, not tank killers (although, as the Americans would also learn, it is hard to expect reality to conform to your ideal).

The British tanks also had something comparable.  Most early war Brit tanks had two versions -- one with the 2 pounder (40mm) AT gun, and a "CS" version with either a 3 inch or 95mm howitzer for infantry support.

Finally, the 75mm gun was most certainly a dual-purpose gun, unlike the howitzers mounted on the early IVs and Brit tanks.  It's armor penetration was inferior to the US 76mm guns, to be sure, but it performed roughly on par with the Russian 76.2mm gun, which I rarely hear anyone say was substandard or inferior by 1941-42 standards.

And I have asked this several times, but never received a satisfactory answer -- what better 30 ton tank would you want?  The Sherman was competitive -- at worst it lagged its contemporaries by months rather than generations.  Contemporaries being the T-34 and PzkwIVs, not the Panthers or Tigers which outweighed them by 50%+, but to which the Sherman is often erroneously compared. 

Logistics and a doctrine of mobility had much to do with fielding a medium tank vs. a heavy.  To call the tank itself a failure of some sort or a "bad tank" is erroneous, because it fit the doctrine well.

The game I think doesn't really reflect the realities of the actual war that made the Sherman worthwhile. In the game we are pretty much killing other tanks with tanks. Even the Panzer lV and its high vel gun would far outclass the Sherman. Fireflys and T-34s would chew them up and spit them out. Especially since they cost so few perks to up, perks easily made up for with wirbels.
A "standard Sherman" with a 76mm gun would be roughly equal to the T34/85.  A "standard Sherman" with the snub 75 would be roughly equal to the T34/76.  If modeled with a gyrostabilizer, it would have an offset to the T-34's advantage of speed.  The .50cal pintle gun would certainly be welcome!  So, no, I disagree that a Sherman wouldn't match up well in the game or that they would be chewed up and spit out. 

I would also argue that if you put in some earlier PzkwIVs with the lower velocity 75s or the PzkwIIIs to get a good representative of the MW tanks (something sorely lacking, not to mention EW), and the '42 snub 75mm Sherman is most certainly competitive if not superior.  ('42 Tiger still pwns, of course.)

(mild hijack) You do bring up a good point about the WW's ENY value -- it should probably be a 10 or 15 vs. the 25 it currently posesses. They are practically perk farmers.  (end mild hijack)
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Offline bj229r

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 09:04:44 PM »
An M4 would be like a basic T34 without the speed, fast-moving turret, or the armor
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 09:35:51 PM »
(mild hijack) You do bring up a good point about the WW's ENY value -- it should probably be a 10 or 15 vs. the 25 it currently posesses. They are practically perk farmers.  (end mild hijack)

WW should BE perked.
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Offline vonKrimm

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 07:51:19 AM »

Finally, the 75mm gun was most certainly a dual-purpose gun, unlike the howitzers mounted on the early IVs and Brit tanks.  It's armor penetration was inferior to the US 76mm guns, to be sure, but it performed roughly on par with the Russian 76.2mm gun, which I rarely hear anyone say was substandard or inferior by 1941-42 standards.

And I have asked this several times, but never received a satisfactory answer -- what better 30 ton tank would you want?  The Sherman was competitive -- at worst it lagged its contemporaries by months rather than generations.  Contemporaries being the T-34 and PzkwIVs, not the Panthers or Tigers which outweighed them by 50%+, but to which the Sherman is often erroneously compared. 

Logistics and a doctrine of mobility had much to do with fielding a medium tank vs. a heavy.  To call the tank itself a failure of some sort or a "bad tank" is erroneous, because it fit the doctrine well.
A "standard Sherman" with a 76mm gun would be roughly equal to the T34/85.  A "standard Sherman" with the snub 75 would be roughly equal to the T34/76.  If modeled with a gyrostabilizer, it would have an offset to the T-34's advantage of speed.  The .50cal pintle gun would certainly be welcome!  So, no, I disagree that a Sherman wouldn't match up well in the game or that they would be chewed up and spit out. 

I would also argue that if you put in some earlier PzkwIVs with the lower velocity 75s or the PzkwIIIs to get a good representative of the MW tanks (something sorely lacking, not to mention EW), and the '42 snub 75mm Sherman is most certainly competitive if not superior. 

Hear, Hear!  I am tired of ppl belittling the 75mm M3 gun while reaming silent on the 76mm L-10, L-11, F-32 & F-34(ZiS5) performance.  The Soviet guns had penetration ranging from 60mm-69mm at 500m while the M3 gun had penetration of 76mm @ 500m; and that is 0degree impact for the Soviet gun, while the US gun is at 30degree impact! :rock  M3 performance would be between T-34/76 & PzIV gun performance; coupled with "no bounce on the move" modeled to refelect the gyro-stabilizer & a firing rate equal to the PzIV, I think we would see as much use in the LW MAs as the PzIV (more M4s on the attack, more PzIV on defence).

I will remain silent on the 76mm & 105mm armed Shermans, except to say "how hard could those be to add?" :pray


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Offline CAVPFCDD

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 10:08:20 AM »
yeah i was wondering about the gyrostabilizer, saw something about that on tv a few months back

was the sherman the only tank to have that?

and , why doesnt the firefly in the game have it? (maybe I'm wrong but I could have sworn it doesn't)
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Offline Karnak

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 11:57:39 AM »
Hear, Hear!  I am tired of ppl belittling the 75mm M3 gun while reaming silent on the 76mm L-10, L-11, F-32 & F-34(ZiS5) performance.
Who is being silent?  Many of us pointed that out when the T-34/76 was announced and said the T-34/85 would have been much more useful in AH.  Pyro said he thought we'd be surprised at how capable it would be, but subsequently I think we were shown to be correct.
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2009, 04:54:16 PM »
yeah i was wondering about the gyrostabilizer, saw something about that on tv a few months back

was the sherman the only tank to have that?

and , why doesnt the firefly in the game have it? (maybe I'm wrong but I could have sworn it doesn't)

I could be wrong but I don't believe the gyro was or could have been used with the 17 pounder - it was hard enough just fitting that gun in the turret!

A lot of the problem is that the M4's strengths are things that can't be modeled in the game (like reliability, ease of maintenance, standardization of parts - an absolute nightmare for the Wehrmacht! - and cheapness of manufacture), and many of its rivals' weaknesses theoretically could be modeled but aren't. If we really wanted to be realistic, the Tiger should get hopelessly bogged down or have an engine breakdown every other trip out and the T-34/76 should disable the player's radio (vox and text) as well as make the player's seat wretchedly uncomfortable and his joystick so unresponsive that it requires a smart blow with a mallet to move it.

In fact the biggest handicap of the T-34/76 was its two-man turret, but that isn't modeled either. (And I think it should be: in other tanks a player in the pintle position should be able to traverse the turret and aim and fire the main gun as well as steer - that's why they had a tank commander in addition to the gunner.)

A high ENY would also make the straight M4 attractive.

But I would rather see a TD, or better yet two, to add new capabilities: a very fast, very lightly armored one like the M-18 - in game terms, roughly a tracked M8 with the Panzer's main gun - and a hulk like the Jagdpanther with even better armor and armament than the Tiger I but no turret.

Offline Karnak

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2009, 04:59:29 PM »
In fact the biggest handicap of the T-34/76 was its two-man turret, but that isn't modeled either. (And I think it should be: in other tanks a player in the pintle position should be able to traverse the turret and aim and fire the main gun as well as steer - that's why they had a tank commander in addition to the gunner.)
Actually, it is kinda modeled in the horribly crappy reload times.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »
WW should BE perked.
No just turret speed fixed and lower the eny.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2009, 05:12:22 PM »
I'm not just talking 1939. The war lasted 6 years and with the Soviets and Germans saw a constant evolution of armor, guns, and ammo. Meanwhile in 1994 France it was going against guns like the KwK 40 L/48 on the lV, and of course the Panthers and Tigers. It wasnt even close. Im not a tank guy and I know some improvements were made in the war with the Shermans gun and ammo but still.

Even if it is comparable with the lV, and it probably would be, the Panzer we have in the game.....well...maybe. There are the MWAs and EWAs. I guess it wouldnt be to hard to touch up the modeling since we already have it in the game. I guess Ill stand mute. It probably would be a good addition tho I'd rather see a TD or scout. I guess any new armor would be welcome. Even tho Im not a tank guy I do like them a lot in the game.
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Offline theNewB

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2009, 02:28:07 AM »
Quote
I like the idea of the tank destroyer but would be as easy to kill as an m3 from the air unless it was a very late model with a roof.

German assault guns and most TD's were covered tops. They lacked the speed but i think they would fair the best in AH arenas since ive been attacked countless times in tigers and t34s by 50cal armed planes. If we get any american TDs IMO i think the only good use would be far away from airfields...other then that a stuka could probably "smoke" your turret. Not sure if it was factory installed those roofs later in the war not that i wouldnt want a fast as stink TD to flank a V base.

As for the M4... I would take it, sure it dosent offer anything more then what we already have, but it would give us an american tank other then the m8 armoured car. that and imagine how much damage it would take since the firefly is a rolling spongebob  ;)

Offline ScatterFire

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2009, 12:02:34 PM »
I like the idea of the tank destroyer but would be as easy to kill as an m3 from the air unless it was a very late model with a roof.
Easiest way to increase survivability for ALL GVs is to remove the targetting indicator that planes get against a GV, just like the GVs don't get them against each other.

There is no "hiding" in AH2 for GVs.  Once a plane is XX away from you it doesn't matter where you are, whether you are sitting still or moving, your camo, etc; you are spotted.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 12:04:06 PM by ScatterFire »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2009, 01:09:25 PM »
Easiest way to increase survivability for ALL GVs is to remove the targetting indicator that planes get against a GV, just like the GVs don't get them against each other.

There is no "hiding" in AH2 for GVs.  Once a plane is XX away from you it doesn't matter where you are, whether you are sitting still or moving, your camo, etc; you are spotted.

At least the plane must be within 1.5 K of you.

There is no "hiding" for planes in the sky at all.

Someone must explain to me again why if our eagle-eyed 20 year old pilot  can spot and identify a 109 or La7 3 nautical miles away, he can't spot a multi-ton tank less than a mile away?

The problem with GVing relative airplanes in AHII has nothing to do with the ability to hide or lack thereof. The fact is, AHII is unlike the real world in that aircraft vastly outnumber ground forces, and there are plenty of excess aircraft with nothing better to do than bomb GV fights (among other things.)
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Offline 442w30

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2009, 01:18:56 PM »
Hear, Hear!  I am tired of ppl belittling the 75mm M3 gun while reaming silent on the 76mm L-10, L-11, F-32 & F-34(ZiS5) performance.  The Soviet guns had penetration ranging from 60mm-69mm at 500m while the M3 gun had penetration of 76mm @ 500m; and that is 0degree impact for the Soviet gun, while the US gun is at 30degree impact! :rock  M3 performance would be between T-34/76 & PzIV gun performance; coupled with "no bounce on the move" modeled to refelect the gyro-stabilizer & a firing rate equal to the PzIV, I think we would see as much use in the LW MAs as the PzIV (more M4s on the attack, more PzIV on defence).

I will remain silent on the 76mm & 105mm armed Shermans, except to say "how hard could those be to add?" :pray


von krimm speaks the truth.   :salute   

I'd drive an early M4...  and not just in special events.  It would be a fun tank. 
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