Author Topic: The Basic M4 (Sherman)  (Read 27252 times)

Offline BigPlay

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2009, 05:20:11 PM »
I say bring it on so we can see those that claim it  will be competitive die ugly deaths. Then it can  turn into another hanger Queen while  a true competitive option be once again passed by only to turn into another post in the Wish List section.

Offline Fencer51

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2009, 06:32:22 PM »
I say bring it on so we can see those that claim it  will be competitive die ugly deaths. Then it can  turn into another hanger Queen while  a true competitive option be once again passed by only to turn into another post in the Wish List section.

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Offline E25280

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2009, 09:15:26 PM »
I say bring it on so we can see those that claim it  will be competitive die ugly deaths. Then it can  turn into another hanger Queen while  a true competitive option be once again passed by only to turn into another post in the Wish List section.
You mean a hanger queen like the T34/76 that still managed to get about 6,000 kills and 10,000 deaths in the LWAs in February?  Or a hanger queen like the M-8 with 4,000 kills and 6,600 deaths?

Both are clearly outmatched by the competition, and might have crappy K/D ratios, but both get decent use. 

Why?  There are advantages to exploit with both (primarily speed) that at least partially compensate for the poor armament.  That is the primary gripe here, it seems, about the 75mm Sherman, yes?

What advantages to the Sherman?  Quick firing gun with better rate of fire than the T-34/76 or PzIV.  Better optics/FOV than the T-34/76.  Turret traverse better than the IV.  .50cal pintle gun vs. peashooter on IV and none on T-34.  The gyrostabilized gun could be modeled with less bounce and recoil effect vs. the other tanks, leading to better fire-on-the-move capability.  Not to mention that lovely green HTC is currently using as a default skin.

And unlike any of the Firefly, T34/85 or Tiger, it would be unperked.

Add a LWA-only 1944 version with a 76mm gun, and any complaints about it being "poorly armed" goes away.

I don't think it would necessarily be the hanger queen you think it will.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2009, 10:29:13 PM »
Let me just preface this post with an apology: I apologize for this wall-of-text I’ve written and are about to subject you to. I’m also sorry for not proofreading this post as I’m already quite tired of looking at it.


How tanks with interleaved road wheels got into combat only dead germans can explain, but it was a maintance nightmare and a stupid way to set up the suspension. All three of Germay’s "great" tanks had this horrid flaw.

The Germans never even considered repairing a wheel or maintaining the suspension on the battle field. What you seem to lack is a general understanding of the difference between German and Allied/Soviet doctrine. The Soviets, Britons and Americans designed their tanks so that a farm boy could fix them in the field, often compromising quality and weight in the process. The Germans designed their tanks to be as good as they could make them, obviously negating the “farm boy” factor, but made them so they could easily be repaired and maintained at a field shop.

The Tigers and Panthers were all built with maintenance access hatches; mind you, they were not meant to be used to fix the machinery while it was still in the tank like you see on Discovey or THC where they criticize the poor access with comments like “you have to work blind and upside-down, and if you dropped your tools they were lost”. No. The access hatches on German tanks were designed so the German field shop mechanics could pull the whole engine or transmission unit out and replace them with working/refurbishes ones.

The Germans invariably designed their machines with Motoranlage or Triebwerksanlage commonly called Kraftei or “power egg”. The engine and transmission were designed as easily replaced units that took 30 minutes to an hour to replace at the shops.

Here are some guys restoring a Panther trying to get the complete front transmission back into the hull:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2LP5V-QGII

I’m sure the German mechanics were a bit more efficient though. ;)


However I digress, let’s get back to the suspension.  The interlocking road wheels did not only give the Panther/Tiger a superior smooth ride, but was also a part of the tank’s armor defense. The wheels themselves were made from armor grade steel and covered the tank’s lower hull, acting like shields allowing the engineers to reduce the armor on the lower hull to only 40mm thus saving weight. The Panther's ride cross-country was second to none.

By comparison the T-34, while its suspension was highly terrain capable the ride was poor compared to the Panther. The springs did not offer the degree of supple compliance of the Panther’s twin torsion bars and the damping was effectively nonexistent; shock absorbers not being fitted. This gave sort of a roller coaster ride over bumpy ground. In other words, moving rapidly over terrain the Soviet crew would get bounced and shaken around quite a lot more. After a while, in prolonged action this would tend to exhaust and debilitate the Soviet crew more, while the German crew would remain relatively unstressed under similar conditions. For the drivers, the T-34 was more tiring to operate anyway and this difference would be aggravated further when maneuvering over terrain for prolonged periods.

From a maintenance point of view the interlocking wheels are often criticized for being to time consuming in that you might have to remove up to five wheels to get to the one that needs replacing. This is an argument only used by people who don’t really think about why the wheel needs replacing in the first place. Battle damage in the form of a mine or a hit from an AT gun would not only damage the inner wheel, but the outer wheels as well. In most cases there would be no more than two extra wheels that had to be removed to get to the damaged ones. Another often quoted criticism is that mud would often jam the wheels. This was a problem with the Tigers on the Russian front, however on the Panther the wheels had sufficient clearance.




Let’s take a closer look at the M4 Sherman’s volute spring suspension:



While the M4’s suspension looks simple enough to work on it simply was not the case with battle damage. If one of the wheels were hit by an AT gun or mine you would in most cases have to replace the entire suspension bogie and spring. Not a job even the hardiest of farm boys could do in the field.


I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth.



The Panther was WAY too big, compare it to the heavier Tiger one and it is BIGGER, this is why its side armor is so weak.

No it just wasn’t. While the Panther’s hull is an inch or two longer (because of the sloping front armor plate), it is not as wide or tall as the Tiger. Some of the early reliability problems that the Tiger suffered from were due to the cramped engineering spaces; so if anything the Panther wasn’t too big, but the Tiger too small.



This is also why it’s so unreliable. The Maybach engine was an aircraft engine made to be light, it was not a good tank motor. Yet they used versions of this motor in the Tiger 1 and 2 and Panther. Why didn’t the fantastic amazing super Germans come up with a motor half as good as the Ford V8 used in the M4A3(also an aircraft engine I believe, or was designed for it but hey it was reliable so it’s not as good as german stuff right?)

Why no replacement for the crappy maybach?

The Maybach HL 210/230 engine was not an aircraft engine or based on one, nor was it “crappy”. Maybach-Motorenbau GmbH was in fact a tank and heavy vehicle manufacturer that during the interwar years made cars, and hadn’t made an aero engine since WWI some 20 years earlier. The Maybach 210/230 was a purpose built tank engine that while being advanced in terms of design and production quality was rather mechanically simple; it was a naturally aspirated, carbureted large displacement engine.




After the underpowered HL 210 was redesigned into the HL 230 and the bugs worked out the Maybach became one of the most reliable tank engines of the war. The often lauded reliability of the T-34 was more a case of it being easy to repair, not that it didn’t break down. The Maybach “power egg” was never designed to be repaired in the field, but in a field shop.

Here’s a restored Maybach HL 230 P30 started up for the first time since the war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VZQVLQAk94


Early in the war the Germans used half-tracked prime movers to tow immobilized tanks off the battlefield back to the field shops. Later in the war they adapted Tigers and Pathers to do the job.

It is interesting that while the Russians continued with their tradition of making their tanks simple and repairable in the field, the western allies chose to adopt the German doctrine. Postwar American and British tanks grew more and more complex, right up to the hi-tech monsters of today. The American Abrams and the British Challenger I/II both share the German philosophy of quality over quantity, and also share the same design characteristics with regard to maintenance. The Leo 2 is a prime example of this “modular” approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxdEtyxa7Ao

These days even the Russians have abandoned the “simple and producible” philosophy of old.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 10:38:07 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2009, 10:30:12 PM »
By the end of the war the Sherman with the HVSS suspension and 76MM gun was more than a match for the panzer 4, and had a good chance of beating anything else the germans put out. Much of Germanys fantastic armor broke down before it got to the fight... Fan bois forget that. Fan bois forget the german war machine was fueled with slave labor.

The Sherman was an ok tank,(it was as good as the german tanks in NA) that got pretty good by the end of the war(with some parts like june of 44 it being not very good for the job but it was still the basic design used in NA and italy), the M4A3 76 HVSS tank was a very good medium tank, better in every way then the Panzer 4. Able to take on Panthers without to much trouble but not one on one(they rarely needed to), that doesn't mean it wasn't a better tank over all. It was simple, reliable, and easy to maintain and it was easy for car makers to build. You can't say any of that about any of the german heavies. 



No, even the 76mm Sherman simply wasn’t a match for late-war PzKpfw IV’s. The IV had superior front armor and a gun that could kill a Sherman front-quarter at more than 2000 yards. In return the Sherman would have to close to 500-1000 yards to kill a IV with a front-quarter shot.



Had the war gone on the super designs would have not saved germany. The US and the UK had designs in the works every bit as good as all that german fantasy crap that got posted.

Yes, the allies had good designs in the works, but in 1944 the Germans were a generation ahead. Like I said earlier (if you had bothered to actually read the thread I might not have to repeat myself) the allies had closed the technology gap with the Centurion Mk. II in 1945.

Also the E-series was not “fantasy crap”, but the 1945 generation of German armor had the war lasted the year. A few preproduction vehicles actually saw action in the closing days of the war in Europe.



We had a heavy tank that would have been a match for the Tiger2(I am sure ours would have been reliable and had a motor that could actually move the thing). The M26 was a easy match for the Tiger1 and Panther. There were over 400 M26s in Europe when the germans and their wonder weapons gave up the fight.

It is interesting that you consider the 1945 M26 an easy match for 1942 Tigers and 1943 Panthers. The M26 wasn’t really ready for combat in WWII and its armor wasn’t up to the task of defending it from the Tigers and Panthers. The 90mm M3 gun was good however, and a lot better at killing Panthers and Tigers than what the Sherman could bring to the fight. The M26 still had a range deficiency against Tigers and Panthers, and really had to use HVAP rounds at ranges over 1000 yards to stay competitive, but the battle would be much more even than with the Sherman.

The M26 used one of the first hydro-kinetic torque converter transmissions in an AFV. This system originally started development in 1943 at the GM Transmission Products Study Group by GM engineers O. K. Kelly and G. Hause. It was a very sophisticated transmission for its time and in the M26 it was dubbed the “cross-drive” Transmission. Post war it was developed into the Allison CD 850 series and remained in basic form the standard transmission of US tanks through the M60 series. The Cross-Drive transmission combines the gear box with the final drive into one unit. The engine output is directed to a torque converter that delivers equal power to both tracks. A PTO internally drives the steering clutches and steering output at the tracks. This system allows the tank not only to pivot in place but to literally spin in place driving tracks in opposite directions.

The M26 was underpowered having barely better power to weight ratio than the King Tiger, and mechanical unreliability was a major problem. The M26’s many bugs weren’t really fixed until it was redesigned in 1948. The transmission was not reliable; it made the tank easier to drive when it worked, but it broke regularly and proved difficult to maintain. The Ford GAF V-8 was reliable but produced no more power than the Sherman’s GAA and the M26 weighed 10 tons more than the M4. In 1948 both engine and transmission were replaced and upgraded models were re-designated the M46 Patton.



The Sherman was a fine tank, and I personally think it was a better tank then either the Tiger or Panther in its later variants...

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but it wasn’t. It really wasn’t.



...the Tiger 2 should never seen production.

I agree. The King Tiger was not a bad tank, it was very good in fact after most of its teething problems were worked out, but it was the wrong tank for Germany in 1944. Germany needed cheap producible AFV’s like the Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV to complement the Panther rather than a gas-guzzling monster tank. Had Germany still been on the offensive and with its production capabilities intact, the King Tiger would have made sense. None of this would have altered the outcome of the war of course; Germany lost the war long before the King Tiger or Panther saw service. Some would say even before the Sherman saw action.



I used to love German armor above all else as well, but then I started reading a bit more on the subject ...

May I respectfully suggest you read some more? Preferably from authors that actually know what they’re writing about. ;)
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2009, 10:30:59 PM »
They really know how to make gear that is pleasing to the eye, the Panther is a very pretty tank, it was just a crappy design saved only by its gun and optics.
 
The D was a mess. The germans couldn't decide in time if it was going to be a T-34 rip off or a "german" tank so it had the crappy hull machine gun mount, and that crappy direct vision flap, both weak spots in the armor. Plus an overly complicated hull design they later revamped. Not to mention all the other things that changed.

They figured these flaws out and tons of others and fixed them in the A and G. The A still had a shot trap, crappy drivers hatches and a big hole in the front armor in front of the driver.

Even the final design the G was just ok and look how much it had to change to get to be a decent tank. 

All tanks have teething problems that only become apparent when the tank is tested in combat, and the Panther was no different. However, generally speaking most WWII tank designs had their worst bugs fixed after about six months. Combat vehicles also tend to get bad reputations if they have particularly bad teething problems. The early M4’s suffered from engine reliability issues and that nasty ammo storage problem that more often than not killed the crew if the tank was hit. As a result the Sherman got a bad rep on both sides of the front; the Germans nicknamed it the “Tommy coocker” (Tommy being their nickname for the British), and the British called it the "Ronson" (cigarette lighter). This was based on the Ronson Company's famous slogan, "lights first time, every time." After the ammunition storage had been redesigned the bad reputation was no longer deserved, but even to this day British (and many American) WWII tankers will attest to having little or no confidence in the Sherman.

A not well known fact is that the T-34 suffered serious teething problems with its transmission and engine. Tracks would also wear out very fast and many crews carried spare tracks over the hull to provide fast repairs (but also because Soviet logistics was unable to ship them in time). In addition, many of the vital parts of the T-34 proved to be ill-manufactured: The air filters were too poor and let dust inside the engine, rapidly wearing it down. The transmission was prone to breaking down and clutches were weak. Maximum theoretical speed was rarely achievable under normal conditions, and the T-34 required a major engine overhaul after less than 100 hours of use. Things became better when a new transmission was introduced in 1943, but as I noted earlier the T-34 was easy to repair … but it needed to be. However, because the T-34 literally saved the Soviet Union from defeat in December 1941 and outclassed all German tanks in this period of the war, the T-34’s success outshines its early problems and it got a good reputation from the start.

The Panther Ausf. D really wasn’t ready for service in July 1943 when it was thrown into the cauldron of the Battle of Kursk. Engine and transmission were prone to breaking down and there were numerous other problems. This gave the Panther a bad reputation of mechanical unreliability that would stick to the vehicle for some time. Problems were experienced with blown head gaskets. As advised by Dr Ferdinand Porsche, this was corrected by installing copper rings pressed into grooves to seal the heads of Maybach HL 230 P30 motors starting with serial number 8321466 in September 1943. Other modifications were introduced at the same time including improved coolant circulation inside the motor and a reinforced membrane spring installed in the fuel pump. In November 1943, starting with Maybach HL230 P30 motor number 8322575, the governor was already set at the factory for a maximum rpm of 2500 rpm under full load and the motors were outfitted with a hand operated temperature control on the oil cooler. Overheating was overcome by fitting a second cooling pump and modifying the cooling distribution. Later Panthers proved very much more reliable than the vehicles involved in the Kursk debacle.

Before the fixes were implemented the Panther Ausf. D had an appalling 35% operational readiness. However with the introduction of the Ausf. A two months later the op. readiness rose to 65% and by early spring 1944 it had risen to more than 80%. After the D-Day landings the Panter’s readiness level would again drop to below 50%, but that was a result of the increasingly desperate supply situation. Something as simple as a worn out air filter would ground a Panther because the spare parts simply didn’t reach the front.

Production of the Ausf. D merged into that of the Ausf. A, with many of the changes associated the Ausf. A actually introduced on late production Ausf. Ds, while others were not immediately introduced. The new cupola can be found on late Ausf Ds, while the machine gun ball mount was not present on all Ausf As until later in 1943.

The Panther may have had a rougher debut than most other tanks of its time, but with the correction of the production-related mechanical difficulties, the Panther became highly popular with German tankers and a fearsome weapon on the battlefield. While the Panther was initially intended to only equip one tank battalion per Panzer division, by June 1944 it accounted for nearly half of German tank strength on both the eastern and western fronts.



If the germans were so great at making tanks why did the panther take 3 models, (plus all the ones in the works to fix the design flaws a minor redesign couldn't like the turret and armor thickness on the hull side, road wheel system etc)

The Germans used new model designations far more than the Allies, even for minor design changes. The crucial factor is time: From the introduction of the Panther Ausf. D at Kursk and to the first Ausf. G rolled off the production line is less than a year. The much improved Ausf. A entered service only two months after Kursk. This is hardly an unreasonable development time.



You can not make the claim with a strait face that the king tiger was not under powered. So was the Panther and tiger.

The King Tiger was underpowered, and suffered mechanical reliability issues for most of 1944. However, it wasn’t as underpowered as most people seem to think, and is comparable to the M26 Pershing in that regard. A V-8 powered M4A3 Sherman had a power to weight ratio of 15 hp per ton; the King Tiger had 10 hp per ton. The M4A3 managed a top speed of 26 mph; the King Tiger managed 21 mph. Considering the King Tiger is more than twice the weight of the M4A3 its performance is not unreasonable and certainly in league with other heavy tanks of its time like the IS-2/3 and M26. The Panther on the other hand had the same power to weight ratio as the M4A3 at 15 hp per ton and due to the better suspension was faster with a top speed of more than 30 mph. The Tiger I (HL 230 P45 motor) managed 23 mph, so I wouldn’t say that the Panther and Tiger were underpowered.



The war was over and lost for the Germans by the time the first panther hit combat. It just helped slow down the end at best.

Quite correct, but also quite irrelevant to this discussion.



I’d like to end this monstrosity of a post by imploring all people involved in this thread to play nice and not submit to name calling and offensive wording. I’m especially thinking of you GtoRA2; Nazi remarks and other insults are both unnecessary and unacceptable. If you feel so strongly about these issues that you can’t be nice I suggest you’d more enjoy spending your time doing something else. In any case I certainly will spend my time doing something more pleasant than responding to your posts if you continue with such an insulting demeanor.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #171 on: March 27, 2009, 10:58:43 PM »
Pretty good post diehard, a little whiney, but at least you posted some info instead of just spazzing out and claiming you were right and I was a sister kisser and trailer trash like bigplay. But yeah, I am the big meany in the thread lol.

I will read your post more in depth later, looks like interesting stuff.

One fact I think you should consider.  I mentioned the nazis for a reason. Every tiger built was issued to the SS (I am pretty sure), the SS was Hitlers personal army of murderers. People like to act as if the waffen SS were some how not connected to the SS camp murderers but they all answered to the same men and took the same oaths and everyone of them was murdering scum.

They may deserve respect for the prowess of their fighting ability, but none are heroes or even good men.  Their machines should always be viewed as the tools of a horrid criminal government. Millions of the people they killed deserve better then to have these men worshiped for being good in a tank.

Think about that the next time you attack someone for calling a REAL Nazi (named Otto) scum.

The regular german army is another story, but the SS were evil. 

« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:02:58 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #172 on: March 27, 2009, 11:36:33 PM »
A machine cannot by definition be evil, or good. Do not turn this into a political or moral debate; all war machines are built for the same purpose regardless of the motivation of their crews.

And you're wrong about the Tiger. It severed with Wehrmacht units on all fronts. Altogether, eleven schwere Panzer-Abteilungen were created for the Heer (initially numbered 501 through 510 and the III.Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland), and three for the SS (numbered 101 through 103 in October 1943).

If you feel so strongly about the Nazis and the SS perhaps you should avoid these discussions. I don't know what personal stakes you have in this topic, but saying that all SS soldiers were evil is extreme.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:47:07 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2009, 12:01:27 AM »
A machine cannot by definition be evil, or good. Do not turn this into a political or moral debate; all war machines are built for the same purpose regardless of the motivation of their crews.

I felt that way until I was about 14, then I started to think about the men who used those machines and how they were used in a more mature way. You can admire the machine, they were good tanks, just not as great as  people make them out to be. But to admire them and not keep in mind whom they were used to kill and why is a bit diisgusting to me.

If you can somehow justify it in your mind more power to you.

And a machine may not be good or evil but they serve good or evil, forgetting that fact may make you feel good about your admiration, but it doesn't change the fact your beloved tool served evil men, and helped the wrong side in an awful war. Admiring med like Otto Carius, is disgusting no mater how he spun serving in the SS, he was scum and his book was self serving. Call me anything you want in his defense but the man was in fact a Nazi.

Maybe you didn't bring him up and maybe you don't admire him, but its clear others here do.  It's sad a self serving Nazi like Carius wrote a book so all the fan boys can admire him and think he and his machine were great, and true heroes Like S/Sgt Lafayette Pool go unnoticed by all but a few people who dig deeper into armor then pretty german tanks that had no effect on the war other then to maybe make it longer at best and shorter at worst by wasting so much material.


Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2009, 12:08:01 AM »
Please do not turn this into a political or moral debate. The moral fortitude (or lack thereof) of the Nazis, Soviets, Vikings, Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great has no place here.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #175 on: March 28, 2009, 12:14:39 AM »
Please do not turn this into a political or moral debate. The moral fortitude (or lack thereof) of the Nazis, Soviets, Vikings, Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great has no place here.

Hey if you can be blind to the mission of the gear, like I said, you have to look yourself in the mirror not me. (Are you one of those "they saved us from the commies guys?")

Stop responding to it if you don't want to talk about it, its not politics, the Nazi ideals are dead to all but a few morons. It's history.  Personally I think you cant talk about one without the other, lest people forget what the machines were used for.

I know I am coming off a bit rude, but glossing over the evil behind the machine seems it bit more sinister to me then talking about it.

I really will read through your post carefully, it seems interesting and well thought out, and I might even learn something.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:16:31 AM by GtoRA2 »

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #176 on: March 28, 2009, 01:15:41 AM »
Impressive footage of a Pershing killing a Panther + interview with the gunner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g The Sherman wasn't that fortunate though.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Angus

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2009, 03:43:21 AM »
"Postwar American and British tanks grew more and more complex, right up to the hi-tech monsters of today."

This is where you must exclude the Centurion :D

Anyway, looking purely at the machine, the "evil factor" behind it has nothing to do with it....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #178 on: March 28, 2009, 11:58:00 PM »
Not really Angus. The Centurion of the late 1960s and early 1970s were advanced machines with the turbo diesel and transmission from the American M60, and packed with advanced weapons and systems. Little remained of the original Centurion except the hull, and even that had undergone numerous modifications over the years.
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Offline Angus

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #179 on: March 29, 2009, 03:46:29 AM »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)