Author Topic: The Basic M4 (Sherman)  (Read 27249 times)

Offline Squire

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #180 on: March 29, 2009, 11:07:34 AM »
"No, even the 76mm Sherman simply wasn’t a match for late-war PzKpfw IV’s. The IV had superior front armor and a gun that could kill a Sherman front-quarter at more than 2000 yards. In return the Sherman would have to close to 500-1000 yards to kill a IV with a front-quarter shot."

The Panthers 75/L70 could do 89mm at 2000 yards at 30 degrees with APCBC. Thats just in range to engage a Sherman with any real hope of kill with a front quarter shot. The M4A3(76) would need HVAP at less than 900 yards to expect any results, but thats vs a Panther, not a Mark IV. 

M4A3(76) Sherman

76/L55 with APCBC ammo: 93mm at 0 degrees at 2000 yards, and 73mm at 30 degrees at 2000 yards.

Armor:

Turret- 89mm at 0 degrees.
Upper Hull- 51mm at 47 degrees slope.
Lower Hull- 102mm at 15 degrees slope.

Panzer IVH (late model)

75/L48 with APCBC ammo: 84mm at 0 degrees at 2000 yards, and 67mm at 30 degrees at 2000 yards.

Armor:

Turret -50mm at 10 degrees slope.
Upper Hull- 80mm at 10 degrees slope.
Lower Hull-  80mm at 14 degrees slope.

Neither tank would have a prayer or killing the other at 2000 yards with normal AP ammo. The specialty (and rare) APCR tungsten shot of both guns would be able to engage each other (just) at ranges of less than 2000 yards. 98mm at 30 degrees at 1800 yards for the Shermans "HVAP" vs 77mm at 1500 yards at 30 degrees for the Mark IVs APCR "Pzgr 40". However neither tank would possess many of those rounds, and in all likelyhood, especially for the Germans in 1944-45, none.

...and there is no evidence the Panzer IVHs armor and/or gun is any better than the M4A3(76). They are in fact quite close. The T-34/85s armor is comparable, but the shell from its 85mm is not as high standard as the Western shells, and so falls a bit short on AP power. If you are comparing vs an M4A3 with the 75L/40 then yes, there is a clear advantage in gun power, as there is vs a T-34/76 M1942.




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Offline Angus

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #181 on: March 29, 2009, 11:55:02 AM »
Bear in mind that most of the engagements were not at those long ranges. I mean, western front, not on the steppes of Russia. So in short, thick skin and a good gun yes, but it could go the "other way".
Who got the lucky shot, and did the first hit work? All that. But if an old Shermie with just the 75mm poked the gun up the exhaust pipe of a tiger, the kittie was indeed in trouble...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #182 on: March 29, 2009, 07:50:43 PM »
"No, even the 76mm Sherman simply wasn’t a match for late-war PzKpfw IV’s. The IV had superior front armor and a gun that could kill a Sherman front-quarter at more than 2000 yards. In return the Sherman would have to close to 500-1000 yards to kill a IV with a front-quarter shot."

The Panthers 75/L70 could do 89mm at 2000 yards at 30 degrees with APCBC. Thats just in range to engage a Sherman with any real hope of kill with a front quarter shot. The M4A3(76) would need HVAP at less than 900 yards to expect any results, but thats vs a Panther, not a Mark IV. 

M4A3(76) Sherman

76/L55 with APCBC ammo: 93mm at 0 degrees at 2000 yards, and 73mm at 30 degrees at 2000 yards.

Armor:

Turret- 89mm at 0 degrees.
Upper Hull- 51mm at 47 degrees slope.
Lower Hull- 102mm at 15 degrees slope.

Panzer IVH (late model)

75/L48 with APCBC ammo: 84mm at 0 degrees at 2000 yards, and 67mm at 30 degrees at 2000 yards.

Armor:

Turret -50mm at 10 degrees slope.
Upper Hull- 80mm at 10 degrees slope.
Lower Hull-  80mm at 14 degrees slope.

Neither tank would have a prayer or killing the other at 2000 yards with normal AP ammo. The specialty (and rare) APCR tungsten shot of both guns would be able to engage each other (just) at ranges of less than 2000 yards. 98mm at 30 degrees at 1800 yards for the Shermans "HVAP" vs 77mm at 1500 yards at 30 degrees for the Mark IVs APCR "Pzgr 40". However neither tank would possess many of those rounds, and in all likelyhood, especially for the Germans in 1944-45, none.

...and there is no evidence the Panzer IVHs armor and/or gun is any better than the M4A3(76). They are in fact quite close. The T-34/85s armor is comparable, but the shell from its 85mm is not as high standard as the Western shells, and so falls a bit short on AP power. If you are comparing vs an M4A3 with the 75L/40 then yes, there is a clear advantage in gun power, as there is vs a T-34/76 M1942.

Ok, I can see that I have to get detailed on this one. Your analyses of the matchup is rather simplistic; there are many important factors beyond that what you have considered.


The premise:
1944 PzKpfw IV Ausf. H vs. M4A3(76)W Sherman facing off at 2,000 yards in open terrain.


The tanks:

M4A3(76)W Sherman



Armor:
Lower hull: 108mm @ 34-90°
Upper hull (glacis plate): 50-63mm @ 43°
Turret: 63mm @ 45-50°
Gun mantlet: 89mm @ 90°

Notes on armor: The M4A3(76)W had upgraded armor compared to the earlier versions; front glacis plate thickness was increased from 51mm to 63mm. The gun mantlet doubles as a shield increasing the effective front turret armor to 152mm; a hit outside the mantlet would likely only result in a glancing hit or ineffectual penetration.


Gun:
76mm M1 with APCBC ammo: 93mm penetration at 0 degrees at 2,000 yards, and 73mm at 30 degrees at 2,000 yards.

Gun sight:
M38 telescope with 1.44 X magnification and 9 degree field of view.




PzKpfw IV Ausf. H



Armor:
Lower hull: 80mm @ 76°
Upper hull (glacis plate): 80mm @ 80°
Turret: 50mm @ 80°
Gun mantlet: 50mm @ 60-90°

Notes on armor: The gun mantlet doubles as a shield increasing the effective front turret armor to 100mm; a hit outside the mantlet would likely only result in a glancing hit or ineffectual penetration. Turret rear, sides and front corners protected by additional armor stand-off shield designed to disrupt incoming shells before they reach the turret armor.

Gun:
75mm KwK 40 L/48 with APCBC ammo: 84mm penetration at 0 degrees at 2,000 yards, and 67mm at 30 degrees at 2,000 yards.

Gun sight:
Turmzielfernrohr TZF 5f with 2.5 X magnification and 25 degree field of view.




Tactical considerations:
At 2,000 yards the high trajectory of incoming shells combined with terrain obstacles, even in open terrain, makes a hit on the lower hull almost impossible. The Sherman’s tall silhouette is dominated by its huge front glacis plate making hull hits more likely than turret hits. The PzKpfw IV Ausf. H’s turret front and upper hull are about the same size, and combined with the superior gun sight, the overall lower silhouette gives the IV an edge in a long-range duel with the M4.



Now… Before we begin with the more complicated stuff we can already see that the only chance either tank has at killing the opposition is a front upper hull hit; the turrets are too heavily armored, and the lower hull is near-impossible to hit. With a theoretical penetration of 93mm at 2,000 yards, the Sherman’s 76mm M1 looks like it might actually penetrate the Panzer’s near-vertical 80mm hull armor, with some luck. On the other hand the Sherman’s 63mm front glacis plate has an effective thickness of 92mm at 43 degrees from horizontal; the KwK 40’s theoretical penetration of 84mm at 2,000 yards looks inadequate to defeat the Sherman’s armor.

But that’s before we begin with the complicated stuff. ;)
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #183 on: March 29, 2009, 07:53:31 PM »
Complicated stuff:

75mm KwK vs. Sherman 63mm glacis plate at 2,000 yards:
At 2,000 yards the incoming shell will have a trajectory of 15-20 degrees off horizontal. This reduces the effective slope of the Sherman’s glacis plate to 58-63 degrees. While the effective armor with an at best 58 degree slope included is still good at 74mm, it is now within the penetrating capabilities of the KwK 40. The 63mm plate is also relatively thin. This means that overmatched rounds will often crush the armor regardless of its theoretical sloped thickness. Theoretically, the higher the muzzle velocity, the more penetration any kind of AP round would have, all other variables remaining constant. In real WWII tank combat, however, other important variables intervened, such as the thickness to diameter (T/d) coefficient, which means that the higher the diameter of any given round relative to the thickness of the armor it is going to strike, the better the probability of achieving penetration. Furthermore, if the diameter of the shell overmatches the thickness of the armor plate, the protection given by the slope of the armor plate diminishes proportionally to the increase in the overmatch of the armor piercing round diameter or, in other words, to the increase in this T/d overmatch. So, when a KwK 40 shell hit the Sherman’s glacis plate, the 75 mm diameter of the shell overmatched the 63mm glacis plate by so much that it made little difference that the Sherman’s glacis was sloped at an angle of 58 degrees from vertical.

"Armor obliquity effects decrease as the shot diameter overmatches plate thickness in part because there is a smaller cylindrical surface area of the displaced slug of armor which can cling to the surrounding plate. If the volume which the shot displaces has lots of area to cling to the parent plate, it resists penetration better than if that same volume is spread out into a disc with relatively small area where it joins the undisturbed armor. Plate greatly overmatching shot involves the projectile digging its own tunnel, as it were, through the thick interior of the plate. It was found experimentally that the regions in the center of the plate produced the bulk of the resistance to penetration, while the outer regions, near front and rear surfaces, presented minimal resistance because they are unsupported. Thus, an overmatched plate will be forced to rely on tensile stresses within the displaced disc, and will tend to break out in front of the attacking projectile, regardless of whether the edges cling to the parent material or not. Plate obliquity works in defeating projectiles partly because it turns and deflects the projectile before it begins digging in. If there is insufficient material where the side of the nose contacts the plate, stresses will travel all the way through the plate and break out the unsupported back surface. The plate will fail instantaneously rather than gradually".

So the PzKpfw IV Ausf. H’s KwK 40 L/48 had a good chance of destroying an M4A3(76)W Sherman at ranges beyond 2,000 yards.



Now, let’s see if the reverse is true as well; will the Sherman be able to kill the Panzer at 2,000 yards?

The answer is: Very, vey unlikely, and the reason is twofold.

First, while the 76mm M1 was a very good gun, its ammunition was deficient. The theoretical penetration of 93mm at 90 degrees at 2,000 yards was only theoretical against German face-hardened armor. The noses of US AP ammunition turned out to be excessively soft. When these projectiles impacted armor which matched or exceeded the projectile diameter, the projectile would shatter and fail. At 80mm the Panzer’s armor overmatched the Sherman’s poor ammunition.

Secondly, the Panzer’s armor was of superior quality to the Sherman’s. As a general rule, BHN (Brinell Hardness Index) effects, shot shatter, and slope effects are related to the ratio between shot diameter and plate thickness. The relationship is complex, but a larger shell hitting relatively thinner plate will usually have the advantage, but the reverse is also true; a thicker plate will usually have the advantage over a smaller shell, regardless of the theoretical penetration. There is an optimum BHN level for every shot vs. plate confrontation, usually in the 260-300 BHN range for WWII situations. Below that, the armor is too soft and resists poorly, above that, the armor is too hard and therefore too brittle.

However the Germans took a lesson from the Japanese sword smiths of old and created rolled face-hardened armor plates using heat treatment techniques reminiscent of those used making Samurai swords. Hard tempered steel increases the armor’s ability to shatter incoming shells, but it is also brittle and may itself shatter. The Germans used heat tempering to gradually increase the hardness of the face of the plate while the core and back face of the plate remained soft and able to support the brittle hard face to prevent it from shattering. Rolled armor is also ballistically superior to cast armor due to the compaction and consolidation of grain structure which occurs during rolling. Today similar techniques are used to make “bullet resistant” glass.

The ideal armor is extremely tough and fairly hard at its outer surface, with two goals:

1. Reflecting enough energy back into the incoming shell to cause it to shatter or deform, thereby diffusing its kinetic energy (if square-on to the outer face) or deflect and carry off most of its energy (if at an angle to the outer face).

2. Maintaining as close to a perfectly stiff outer surface on the armor as possible during the extremely dynamic energy flow following impact, so that the incoming energy is spread over as large an area of the outer face of the armor as possible, to maximize the volume of metal behind the impact area into which the energy shock wave is transmitted.

Ideal armor is quite ductile for a significant depth from its inner face, so that a shock wave arriving from the outer face is dissipated to the greatest possible extent in deformation, so as to avoid spalling or fragmentation. Even if the inner face reaches its melting point during deformation, a minimum amount of molten metal will be ejected inward, and hopefully at low velocity. If the melting point is reached during spalling, on the other hand, relatively massive pieces of molten metal can be projected at high velocity, which is very undesirable. Even for minor impacts that do not cause inner-face melting, spalling is very likely to cause damage. If complete fragmentation occurs, catastrophic damage can be caused by the fragments and by passage of some or all of the incoming shell through the armor.


The reason that simple penetration figures are meaningless is that the best plate armor, can deliver a much greater degree of this kind of ideal performance. Simple, crude WWII castings on the other hand, were homogeneous all the way through at best, and were uncontrolled and variable in counterproductive ways in other cases. Very good plate armor may deliver three or four times the performance, inch for inch, of the best possible homogeneous casting.

The use of rolled armor is also the reason why German tanks look so angular and boxy compared to the mostly cast-steel allied tanks.



So in conclusion I stand by my previous statement:

"No, even the 76mm Sherman simply wasn’t a match for late-war PzKpfw IV’s. The IV had superior front armor and a gun that could kill a Sherman front-quarter at more than 2000 yards. In return the Sherman would have to close to 500-1000 yards to kill a IV with a front-quarter shot."

A combination of higher quality armor, the physics of overmatching that were not really understood at the time, better ammunition, better optics and a smaller silhouette made the PzKpfw IV Ausf. H a distinctly superior tank. There were more than one reason why allied tankers invariably reported every German tank as being a Tiger. It wasn’t just the looks.



I also want to address this claim:

“The specialty (and rare) APCR tungsten shot of both guns would be able to engage each other (just) at ranges of less than 2000 yards. 98mm at 30 degrees at 1800 yards for the Shermans "HVAP" vs 77mm at 1500 yards at 30 degrees for the Mark IVs APCR "Pzgr 40". However neither tank would possess many of those rounds, and in all likelyhood, especially for the Germans in 1944-45, none.”


While the western allies didn’t introduce HVAP rounds until mid 1944 the Germans had been using Hartkern (tungsten APCR) rounds since 1940, and about 25% of Germany’s production of AP tank/anti-tank shells were APCR. Germany used APCR rounds more extensively than any other nation, to the point of arming their anti-tank aircraft with hartkern firing cannons (Ju 87G, Ju 88 and Hs 129 primary). When the Germans ran out of tungsten in 1944 they used hardened steel and mild iron as core material. Not as effective as tungsten, but still better than a solid shot.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #184 on: March 29, 2009, 07:59:16 PM »
Listen to the experts ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8SU5sPoP6w
And
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STSJdT2Ih_o
;)

I'd advice you to stay as far away as possible from Discovery Channel or THC "experts". ;)
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #185 on: March 29, 2009, 08:05:29 PM »
But if an old Shermie with just the 75mm poked the gun up the exhaust pipe of a tiger, the kittie was indeed in trouble...

This is a common misconception, and possibly a result of other German tanks being misidentified as Tigers. The Tiger I had in fact the same 80mm armor thickness at the rear as it did at the sides. So against a Tiger (a real one) a 75mm Sherman would be impotent no matter the direction of the attack. The reason the Tiger had such insanely thick rear armor was because it was designed as a breakthrough tank; when your job is to drive through the enemy lines you need good armor on all sides, like a bunker.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Angus

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #186 on: March 30, 2009, 04:08:13 AM »
I'd advice you to stay as far away as possible from Discovery Channel or THC "experts". ;)

Well, if you have a tank in service for more than 50 years and with that record, as well as interviews with the people involved, I do not care who brings me the data. If it is on the History channel, I do not autamatically discard it.
Those were two different episodes, but the bottom line was clear. The Centurion is very rugged, built for the crew to be able to keep it going, and has an excellent record. This is a 1945 tank, stays as probably the best heavy tank in the world for a good while. My point was (again) that in 1945 there was no generation gap in tank production, - the allies had caught up. IMHO the design of the Centurion is rather ahead if anything, since it's built for the field.
(Today, us farmers do have that problem with tractors.)
And for the exhaust pipe  - my point was that combat frequently occured (western front that is) at much closer range than the effective range of i.e. the 88mm gun. What does a Shermie with the old 75mm do to a Tiger at 5 yards?
(However, on the flat areas on the eastern front, as well as in the desert, this is another thing).
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #187 on: March 30, 2009, 08:57:46 AM »
"Postwar American and British tanks grew more and more complex, right up to the hi-tech monsters of today."

This is where you must exclude the Centurion :D



Well, if you have a tank in service for more than 50 years and with that record, as well as interviews with the people involved, I do not care who brings me the data. If it is on the History channel, I do not autamatically discard it.
Those were two different episodes, but the bottom line was clear. The Centurion is very rugged, built for the crew to be able to keep it going, and has an excellent record.

That is true, but it does not change the fact that the Centurion grew more and more advanced and complex for every upgrade program it went through to stay compettitive over the years. In its late-1960s early 1970s form the Centurion was just as complex as the American M60, sharing the same L7 gun, same engine and same transmission. It was no longer a tank that a farm boy could fix in the field. And that is why I wouldn't, and still won't, exclude the Centurion in my statement:

"Postwar American and British tanks grew more and more complex, right up to the hi-tech monsters of today."



These two tanks are very different, even if they share the same name:







This is a 1945 tank, stays as probably the best heavy tank in the world for a good while.

Hardly. The Soviet IS-3 was far superior, and from 1951 the US M48 Patton was just as good, if not better.



My point was (again) that in 1945 there was no generation gap in tank production, - the allies had caught up.

How many times do I have to agree with that before you accept it?



IMHO the design of the Centurion is rather ahead if anything, since it's built for the field.

The Soviet IS-3 was far better and entered service in time to see combat in WWII, unlike the Centurion.



And for the exhaust pipe  - my point was that combat frequently occured (western front that is) at much closer range than the effective range of i.e. the 88mm gun. What does a Shermie with the old 75mm do to a Tiger at 5 yards?
(However, on the flat areas on the eastern front, as well as in the desert, this is another thing).

At five yards? At point blank range all 1944 tanks would be able to destroy just about any other tank. However getting to point blank range was a costly affair in machines and lives. The net result of all of the deficiencies of allied armor was that advancing was much slower and more expensive in terms of tanks and infantry than it otherwise would have been. Five hundred burning British tanks at the end of the failed operation Goodwood made dramatic testimony to the disadvantages that inferior tanks brought on to the allies. Total allied armour causalities in Normandy were running at three times the German total. The tankers kept fighting but costs were extremely high and the men were losing confidence in their tanks, despite usually having superior numbers, artillery and air support.

"As we go now each man has resigned himself to dying sooner or later because we don’t have a chance against the German tanks. All of this stuff that we read about German tanks being knocked out makes us sick because we know what prices we have to pay in men and equipment to accomplish this."

Eventually the allies blasted their way out of Normandy with the aid of 3,300 planes dropping a total of 14,000 tons of bombs in three hours, literally obliterating anything in the path of the advance with a tonnage of bombs only exceeded by Hiroshima.  Advantages in numbers, a willingness to take losses, and massive advantages in artillery, air support, fuel and supplies made it possible for the allies to advance in Western Europe and eventually win. However the inability to produce a tank that could take on the panzers on even terms and the terrible causalities that this caused in men and machines is something that should not be forgotten.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:59:29 AM by Die Hard »
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #188 on: March 30, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »
It is interesting that while the Russians continued with their tradition of making their tanks simple and repairable in the field, the western allies chose to adopt the German doctrine. Postwar American and British tanks grew more and more complex, right up to the hi-tech monsters of today. The American Abrams and the British Challenger I/II both share the German philosophy of quality over quantity, and also share the same design characteristics with regard to maintenance.

That's largely due to political concerns not present in WW2 Germany. For one, we simply aren't prepared to take casualties anywhere close to what might be sustainable in economic or military terms - the Sherman was already something of a scandal in WW2; its equivalent today would be an impeachable offense. To nearly the same degree it also reflects the critical manpower shortage with the post-Vietnam all-volunteer army where you have to compete with private enterprise to attract recruits. Not that anyone in the ETO had unlimited manpower, of course, but these factors make it that much more critical today.

(It seems like every decade or so some self-important kid in Congress or a new administration "figures out" that we could have a much more efficient military in economic terms if we replaced our huge, complex, and expensive tanks, planes, and ships with twice as many units costing one-third as much each - not thinking about the fact that that would be fine, as long as we were willing to take 50% casualties whenever we commit them to battle. It's easier to mission-kill one supercarrier than 2 or 3 minicarriers, but it's easier to sink one of the latter than the supercarrier.)

I imagine the Soviet "any farmboy can fix it" approach has a lot to do with the expectation that when fighting on their home soil they might have had to tow an immobilized tank a hundred miles to get it to the nearest field depot, and in a hypothetical blitzkrieg of West Germany the field depots would never have been able to keep pace with the advancing front. I also imagine those concerns proved troublesome for the Germans on the Eastern Front.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #189 on: March 30, 2009, 11:35:15 AM »
Pretty good post diehard, a little whiney, but at least you posted some info instead of just spazzing out and claiming you were right and I was a sister kisser and trailer trash like bigplay. But yeah, I am the big meany in the thread lol.

I will read your post more in depth later, looks like interesting stuff.

One fact I think you should consider.  I mentioned the nazis for a reason. Every tiger built was issued to the SS (I am pretty sure), the SS was Hitlers personal army of murderers. People like to act as if the waffen SS were some how not connected to the SS camp murderers but they all answered to the same men and took the same oaths and everyone of them was murdering scum.

They may deserve respect for the prowess of their fighting ability, but none are heroes or even good men.  Their machines should always be viewed as the tools of a horrid criminal government. Millions of the people they killed deserve better then to have these men worshiped for being good in a tank.

Think about that the next time you attack someone for calling a REAL Nazi (named Otto) scum.

The regular german army is another story, but the SS were evil. 




I don't have the time to make the posts that diehard did and I knew he would come in with the type of info that was correct and to the point. What he just did here was prove all of your points inaccurate as I did , except I didn't take the kind of time he did. Like I said .... if you read a few more book, good books on the subject you wouldn't have made all those stupid statements that you did. Again, your making statements that are opinion and not fact. Fact 1, every Tiger didn't go to the SS pnzr div. I don't have the time to look it up but I am almost positive that more went to regular Heer pnzr div. designated (Schwer) for heavy then did the SS 2. The waffen SS wasn't connected to any death camps, many of them never seen Germany much after 43. The Waffen SS however you want to view them was a professional army and was a group That gave nor expected quarter from their foes . Evil...... I doubt that evil had anything to do with the average Waffen SS soldier but you seem to have a hang up about them. When Hitler came into power nobody realized just how evil he was. The average German just wanted their lives and country to be restored. Hitler made the promisses and backed it up early. That is what got the average German to follow Hitler. I have Jewish blood and I have Jewish friends and I seem to think you do as well from your zealous nature towards the SS. I however do not make blanket statements about people that I never met . That is what Hitler did about  the Jews. Not every Waffen SS person hated the Jews and making a statement that they did is another opinion based on no fact. One more thing ..... Otto Carrius was not SS. He was in the 503 Schwer pnzr div. a Heer unit.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #190 on: March 30, 2009, 12:26:13 PM »
Indeed BigPlay; that's certainly the gist of it.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline BigPlay

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #191 on: March 30, 2009, 12:40:32 PM »
Indeed BigPlay; that's certainly the gist of it.


I have no ill will toward this guy but he doesn't look at things objectively. The average German soldier was a patriot to his country and like our soldiers today they have sworn an allegiance to the country. Agreed that the Waffen SS was not the poster child of a compassionate soldier but they did their job brutally well. Their mindset was completely different than most western armies. Just look how they handled Parisian groups. They did it rather brutally and I'm sure if the US handled the taliban and it's allies like the Germans did the conflict would be over. I'm not suggesting that in fact the US take these steps but from a pure military standpoint the German military force was a force to be reckoned with. However anyone perceives the Germans conduct during WW2 I think to in fact be able to make accusations about anyone ones morals they really need to read about the subject matter. From all that I have read you would think that the Russians of all the foes that the Germans faced would have a hatred toward them more than most but I have heard the opposite. The Russians soldier had healthy respect for the German military. I have also read that when the Russian's found out they were fighting the Waffen SS that they would avoid them if they could. I also heard the many Waffen SS panzer divisions have had reunions that included tours of Russian battlefields where they were met and had drinks with their Russian foes.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 12:52:36 PM by BigPlay »

Offline Angus

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #192 on: March 30, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »
A quick one here Diehard:
"Hardly. The Soviet IS-3 was far superior, and from 1951 the US M48 Patton was just as good, if not better."

Now, the Centurion was engaging soviet tanks much  later, and the results are staggering. So either the Russian tank is just so good on paper, the forces using it so poor, or tank development went down after WW2. Got to read a bit up though. Tanks are really not my field, but slowly become more interesting ;)
As for this:
"That is true, but it does not change the fact that the Centurion grew more and more advanced and complex for every upgrade program it went through to stay compettitive over the years. In its late-1960s early 1970s form the Centurion was just as complex as the American M60, sharing the same L7 gun, same engine and same transmission. It was no longer a tank that a farm boy could fix in the field. And that is why I wouldn't, and still won't, exclude the Centurion in my statement"

It has add-ons, but the primary design is made for the in-field business. Bear in mind that a big thing here is the tracks and suspension, since a tank off-track is not much more than an armoured gun. Today you have tanks like the Leopard, which are made for component-swapping. Today's tractors actually may need a laptop for the transmission to work, in case there is an electrical problem! Two sizes of spanners will not help you. But that was the thought when the Centurion was built.
The two tanks on the picture sort of prove the quality. After all, the beast has been in use since 1945 and still is, what do you expect? Built for the future.....
Ant the finest hour of the Centurion? 1973, when the chassis is almost a 30 year old thing. I think no tank will ever top the performance of 2 vs 150, killing an entire division, and those were mostly T-65's, - something that replaced the IS-3. BTW, if I recall right, the IS-3 was very vulnerable from the top, or was it the back??

It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #193 on: March 30, 2009, 02:40:19 PM »
You keep rambling on about tractors and T-65's, whatever that is, I'm going to assume you mean the T-62. No amount of rambling from you is going to change the fact that when the Centurion entered service in 1945 is was inferior to the IS-3. That Israeli uparmored, upgunned and generally upgraded Centurions later were victorious against T-54/55's and T-62's is completely irrelevant. The T-62 is lighter than the IS-3, has less armor and a smaller gun. After WWII the Soviets abandoned heavy tanks and instead concentrated on fast "mass attack" medium tanks like the T-54/55 and T-62. The T-62 is 11 tons lighter than the original Centurion, and 7 tons lighter than the IS-3.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline BigPlay

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Re: The Basic M4 (Sherman)
« Reply #194 on: March 30, 2009, 03:03:12 PM »
You mean a hanger queen like the T34/76 that still managed to get about 6,000 kills and 10,000 deaths in the LWAs in February?  Or a hanger queen like the M-8 with 4,000 kills and 6,600 deaths?

Both are clearly outmatched by the competition, and might have crappy K/D ratios, but both get decent use. 

Why?  There are advantages to exploit with both (primarily speed) that at least partially compensate for the poor armament.  That is the primary gripe here, it seems, about the 75mm Sherman, yes?

What advantages to the Sherman?  Quick firing gun with better rate of fire than the T-34/76 or PzIV.  Better optics/FOV than the T-34/76.  Turret traverse better than the IV.  .50cal pintle gun vs. peashooter on IV and none on T-34.  The gyrostabilized gun could be modeled with less bounce and recoil effect vs. the other tanks, leading to better fire-on-the-move capability.  Not to mention that lovely green HTC is currently using as a default skin.

And unlike any of the Firefly, T34/85 or Tiger, it would be unperked.

Add a LWA-only 1944 version with a 76mm gun, and any complaints about it being "poorly armed" goes away.

I don't think it would necessarily be the hanger queen you think it will.


Again bring it on. Youll be the first guy I said I told you so to.