Please reconsider the Ta152 ENY

[grizz441]

The top 5 killers:

P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D

Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.

The La7 is just on the outskirts.  The La7 has such poor endurance that it is generally only a viable choice for base defense.  Defending a base and killing that con with all the advantages is also the toughest kill to get.

Enough hijacking though..

[moot]

By the powers granted to me as Thread Originator, I grant you Permission to continue deliberation of this Most Relevant tangent.

[BnZs]

With this idea here, you are completely ignoring the dynamic of the main arena which is not like any 1v1 duel.  The best information available on plane performance is the data that comes out each month from the LW.

1v1? I was also thinking there could be a 4v4 dueling category...

Nope, sorry, that is some of the worst information. The MA is full of people who know less about air combat and their own aircraft than the greenest real combat pilot imaginable.

[BnZs]

This of course ignores k/d. The P-40 would have a huge chunk of MA kills too if nearly 10% of sorties were flown it it...doesn't mean much about the aircraft if it gets killed about as often as it gets a kill.

The top 5 killers:

P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D

Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.

[moot]

This is kind of like plasma physics. You can't just change one variable and not have all the others change too.  The P40's k/d is only what it is because it's flown as much/little and well/bad as it is now. 10% of the sorties flown with the P40 would make for a different k/d, k/t, etc.

[grizz441]

Hehe, very well moot.

The MA is full of people who know less about air combat and their own aircraft than the greenest real combat pilot imaginable.

Yes but the masses define what planes work best in the game play environment that they create in the MA.

I wish it was possible to set up a controlled experiment, for example, have all the pilots who fly P51Ds have to fly P47Ns for three months and then compare the stats of the two planes.  Lets assume for all intensive purposes that both planes would be flown in the same style.  I'm willing to bet the farm that the P47N which would be the new top killer in the MA in this experiment would have a significantly lower K/D than that of the P51D when it is the top killer.  Same goes for the Ta152 (for thread relevance sake) in the same experiment.  If this was the case, it would prove the P51D is a flat out better MA ride for the masses than the P47N or the Ta152 therefore undermining the current Eny's of all 3 planes.  Do you disagree?  Do you think the masses could accrue as high of K/D totals in the P47N & Ta152 if they were as popular as the P51D?  I don't even think it would be close.  It would be hard to tally all the random crashes from tail spins though in the Ta152. 

[BnZs]

This is kind of like plasma physics. You can't just change one variable and not have all the others change too.  The P40's k/d is only what it is because it's flown as much/little and well/bad as it is now. 10% of the sorties flown with the P40 would make for a different k/d, k/t, etc.

It is not like any kind of science because there is no useful information or consistent principle to be discerned from the usage and k/d stats. If you could somehow whittle the flying population down to only the competent, then kills/death, kills/sortie, and kills/time *together* *might* tell you something useful about MA effectiveness. But that is not the case, you run into things like the P-51D having a lower k/d than the 190 A-5 for 2008.

[BnZs]

I am very confident that the ex P-51 pilots could amass an equal or greater k/d with the P-47N. If nothing else, the P-47N with its 8 guns, ammo load, and roll rate is going be better for the KILLING end of it out of a high speed dive.

I am fairly confident they could also gain a roughly equal k/d in the Ta-152, you have to be stall fighting to get bit by that nasty departure you talk about, and that is not the style in question aye? If nothing else, the Ta-152 firepower is superior for tackling buffs.

Hehe, very well moot.

Yes but the masses define what planes work best in the game play environment that they create in the MA.

I wish it was possible to set up a controlled experiment, for example, have all the pilots who fly P51Ds have to fly P47Ns for three months and then compare the stats of the two planes.  Lets assume for all intensive purposes that both planes would be flown in the same style.  I'm willing to bet the farm that the P47N which would be the new top killer in the MA in this experiment would have a significantly lower K/D than that of the P51D when it is the top killer.  Same goes for the Ta152 (for thread relevance sake) in the same experiment.  If this was the case, it would prove the P51D is a flat out better MA ride for the masses than the P47N or the Ta152 therefore undermining the current Eny's of all 3 planes.  Do you disagree?  Do you think the masses could accrue as high of K/D totals in the P47N & Ta152 if they were as popular as the P51D?  I don't even think it would be close.  It would be hard to tally all the random crashes from tail spins though in the Ta152. 

[grizz441]

I am very confident that the ex P-51 pilots could amass an equal or greater k/d with the P-47N. If nothing else, the P-47N with its 8 guns, ammo load, and roll rate is going be better for the KILLING end of it out of a high speed dive.

I am fairly confident they could also gain a roughly equal k/d in the Ta-152, you have to be stall fighting to get bit by that nasty departure you talk about, and that is not the style in question aye? If nothing else, the Ta-152 firepower is superior for tackling buffs.

I'd like to get moot's take on it.

Imagine all of the low P47Ns and Ta152s trying to run and getting chased down and killed.  The P51D will escape unscathed in a lot more of these situations.
Btw, I'd much rather kill a set of buffs with P47N or P51D than the Ta152.  Buffs absorb 30mm taters like nobody's business. 

Jabboing does significantly drop the K/D of the P51D and in my 'experiment' you can assume the same pilots would be jabboing in the P47N and dying the same way.  But since the Ta152 doesn't carry bombs it wouldn't be a very controlled experiment i guess with this plane in particular due to this circumstance.

[moot]

BnZ - I'm just saying you can't just extrapolate what the P40 k/d would be from where the stats stand right now.  The point is that you've got a soup of elements with a variety of attributes, and it's all interdependent.  Change one and everything changes in concert. None of the elements are in a vacuum.

Grizz - What's the question exactly?
47/51/152 for buffs... I dunno, they're pretty close overall.  The differences are in how you mean to kill the bombers.. Some passes are easier and/or more lethal in the 152, and others are easier and/or more lethal in the 50cal birds.  The thing with the 152's cannons against bombers is that (and anyone who flew a lot before AH2 will remember this when we got AH2) the nose wavers, unlike the 51 and 47 (magnified by the comparatively pinpoint accurate ballistics), so that it's real easy to spread the cannons too far apart.. Unless you get in real close (and risk more time in the bombers' defensive fire - begging for a rad hit); and there too it's a toss-up: for the 50cal birds, you have to fly pointing at the target for longer compared to the cannons' quicker lethality.
8x.50 is a real chainsaw, and from further out, and the 47's pretty durable.. But then the 47N's no climbing monster.   It's a toss-up.

Comparing the 51 and 152.. It's pretty obvious IMO that the 51 is much more user friendly.  The only way the 152 appears as the better, more potent fighter is if you're experienced enough to be able to extract that potential from it; even then, the 51D isn't uncompetitive either.  That user-friendliness is a more useful virtue to most players. There's enough different flight regimes where either one of the two comes out on top that neither is clearly the better plane. IMO the 8 ENY value is pretty much perfect.  The 47N needs 8 or 10.  It's just too heavy, the wep lasts too little, the firepower is too restricted by the other attributes.
The 152.. I'm biased, but one objective argument is that the K4 simply can't be 20.  Not when the 152's at 5, which is definitely too low.. I think it deserves something like 8 as well.

[waystin2]

I think it deserves something like 8 as well.

Grizz and I touched on this in a previous conversation.  I think an 8 would be a more suitable ENY for the 152.  She is an absolute monster up high, but only truly sings at average MA alts in the hands on skilled pilots.  The 5 ENY is too low...

[grizz441]

Grizz - What's the question exactly?

Well like you said the P51D is very user friendly.  My question in general was: Do you think if you put all the P51D pilots currently into P47Ns or 152s they'd be able to match the P51D K/D stats?  I say no.  47n and 152 have too many quirks the average pilot can't overcome and simply aren't fast enough to escape from a lot of other popular rides.

[moot]

Do you think if you put all the P51D pilots currently into P47Ns or 152s they'd be able to match the P51D K/D stats? 

Nope.

[BnZs]

I'd like to get moot's take on it.

Imagine all of the low P47Ns and Ta152s trying to run and getting chased down and killed.  The P51D will escape unscathed in a lot more of these situations.

You think the 3mph and 7mph the P-51D has over the 47 and 152 OTD respectively will make all the difference, aye?

P-47N and Ta-152 you don't have to be a "rifleman" with the guns...you just set up a relatively short range bounce or crossing shot and let the lethality work.

P-47N is as "user friendly" in handling as the P-51D if you don't take an hour's worth of fuel. The only real quirk is conserving WEP until you really need it, which is also needed in the P-51 if one wants to reliably accelerate away from a crowd of pursuers. P-47N you can also hammer away for 32 seconds before running out of ammo.

Anyway, didn't the fairly popular planes SpitXVI, La7, D9, and Typhoon all have a higher k/d for 2008 than the P-51D?

Many clearly DO think they think it is the "best plane", just as clearly they are wrong.

 As far as practical bearing of this, I'd put Typhoon, Jug-N, P-51D, 152, D9, and K-4 all around ENY 10. Everyone of them has too much good and bad relative the others for a clear choice. I'd probably also put the N1K there too if I had my druthers.

[moot]

Agree to disagree, I expect.
The 51D doesn't have just a marginal 3mph advantage OTD over the 47 (at MIL they're something like two dozen MPH apart), although the 152's mil and wep speeds are comparable to the N's.  Acceleration of all three is marginaly different.

The N easily out punches the 152 at medium to long ranges.  The 51 is identical to the N with only difference being required exposure time, which is about equally counter-balanced by the 51's relative agility.  At short range, the 51 is easily more user friendly than the 47 and 152.  Screw up a shot in the 152 and you're done.  A slow knife fight in the N is no easy feat for an average player.  A fast snapshot (e.g. at high speed) from closer range with the N is no guarantee of a kill.

The N is definitely not as user friendly as the 51.  Not unless you load the comparison by giving the N low fuel and light ammo, or 6 guns which totally defeats the purpose of this comparison.  I don't think the extra ammo is considerable as a user-friendly feature, unless said user manages to dump the ammo on targets early on in the flight.